If you face three buddies allying up as E/F/G, yeah sure, prop up R/I/A.

However, after England has taken STP and (possibly) MOS, what options remains for him?

Only to stab Germany and France...
So in 95% of all Western Triple games - go ahead and nibble away at R/I/A!
Just that very many Turks seems so afraid to do so...Strange..

I think the fear Turks face when they see the AIR response to a WT is that they can't nibble away effectively. They're afraid that an attack on one of them will send all three of AIR after them, preferring to destroy the traitor rather than stop the Triple.

I haven't faced too many WTs here, but as Turkey, if I couldn't get there myself, I would look to hold the 14center southern stalemate (Ita, Aut, Balkins, Tur & Sev) with two of Ita, Aut & Rus. Obviously, if the WT gets off to an exceptionally strong start, cutting out one of the southern powers may not be possible.

That still leaves enough centers on the other side for someone to solo, but the Triple will have to break for that to happen. If it does break, then Tur should be well positioned to make immediate gains in the Balkins.

An issue with joining the A/I/R response to the Western Triple is that you're going to be stuck at 4 until A/I/R is done with France and Germany, and then they're coming at you. They can't stop you hitting Bulgaria, so they'll concede that to you, but all other territories you'll get "Austria/Russia/Italy is on the front lines here, we'll get SC's for you when we can." And even if those three advance, they're not turning over Greece or Rumania any time soon. It'll always be next season. So I say, get what you can when you can, because the odds of the WT lasting until it gets to you are low, whereas if you prop up AIR you're eventually going to be seen as a liability.

That said, if AIR really are facing a full Western Triple, they can't do much to stop you. Realistically, Russia won't make much headway, so you & he could probably stab your way through AI relatively well, and in the breakdown try and work England round

In my experience, WTs are a blessing for IT and RUS and usually a death sentence for TUR.

The moment a WT is spotted, the usual response is an AIR alliance, with IT and RUS holding the main stalemate line (which makes any stab a suicide).

If TUR has had a strong start and is at 5 centers (or 4 with good positioning), chances are he'll be asked to help. The problem being the AIR will see him as a long-term threat and the moment the WT is not a threat (for whatever reason), the AIR will turn around and take him out.

If TUR had a weak start (4 centers with IT/AUS already in the AEG, or less than 4 centers) the AIR will conclude that it's faster to kill TUR and place new units on the front-line, rather than seek peace and rush to retreat everything.

Having in mind WTs longevity and success-rate, chances are the AIR will easily outlast it and find an appropriate time to kill TUR in the process.

Oh, obviously, if you've had a strong start and decide to stab the AIR, chances are you'll die next, helping a rare WT success.

^^ These assume AIR holds together. Another reasonable option is to stab Italy, and take his place. AR won't sacrifice their sections of the line just to protect him. That said, building up your navy to do this is virtually impossible unless the triple rises out of an opening struggle

Turkey can also take Russia's place on the line. I think cutting out one of I/R is a key to the Turks long term success.

But that's the problem Italy and Russia are where the stalemate lines go through. If they are stabbed and turn it's game over. One of the main reasons WT fail is that they meet a brick wall and can't advance. Chances are, if they see the line collapsing (and there're no stalemate lines to the east of Italy) they may decide to stick together. It's a solid 3-way draw.

gameID=47099

This game is still technically ongoing, and I won't comment on it, but I think this was a perfect counter to a WT.

I will say though, that I think the key to IRT's success that game was separating Turkey's armies from his fleets so it would be more or less impossible for him to stab.

A/T would only need to get as far as Sev.

Austria and Italy are just as secure with T as R, and the Turk is better placed to help on both sides of the line.

@ Ivo: Everything you say is true, but as Turkey, you work against those things happening.

It is the exact same thing that france should do in the face of a juggernaut. Either be ballsy and take what you can hoping you can split it up, or sacrifice your growth to qualm the alliance.

The other option we haven't spoken about is for Turkey to go it alone, accept the western triple will dominate the map but lock himself away safe in the corner:
http://devel.diplom.org/Online/StalematesAtoY/southern-min.htm

How can you get any of those positions as Turkey when France is attakcing Italy? I mean, most of these stalemate lines assume that Turkey controls the Tyrrhenian sea.

There are stalemate lines behind there. You don't need to stop the WT at 17 like a single-power. They can control more than that and still meet a stalemate line.

My favorite stalemate line for the south is:
Sev/Rum S Ukr
Bud/Tri S Vie
Adr/Apu S Ven
Nap S Rom
wherever S Ionian

An I/T alliance can surprise A/R to gain that position while E/F/G come down from the north. And maybe you don't need Italy to do it. But certainly is little reason for Turkey to just sit in the back field and twiddle his thumbs.

This isn't a complete stalemate but this conversation makes me keep thinking about this game: gameID=48400

In what way is it not a complete stalemate?

I think he means because the northern powers can move around?

There is not support hold on Rumania.

And in order to put one there he loses the ability to ensure Budapest.

Oh yeh, embarrassed I didn't spot that.
Its also vunerable to an allied reshuffle that could put more fleets against Ionian.

Trieste is also vulnerable.

Oh, I'm sorry Lando, I misunderstood what you said. I thought you were saying that the stalemate I listed wasn't a stalemate. Yes, the game you linked isn't a stalemate for sure, but good enough to get the draw.