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A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
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killer135 (100 D)
12 Aug 10 UTC
Killer Fan Club
Idea inspired by tt612, post in here if you like how I play. I bet this thread goes down fast.
11 replies
Open
centurion1 (1478 D)
13 Aug 10 UTC
special live game
Who wants to kill cebturion1

Can't post the link I'm on my phone
26 replies
Open
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
10 Aug 10 UTC
The Masters Champion
The Champion of the inaugural Master's tournament is now certain, even though two games are still ongoing.

See inside...
42 replies
Open
jman777 (407 D)
09 Aug 10 UTC
Meyers-Briggs Personality Type Indicator
I can't remember if I've started a thread about this here before but I personally am a huge fan of their personality test. You can find a pretty good one on facebook called myType and I'm sure if you google it you can turn up something. Has anyone else ever heard of it/taken it? I am an ENTJ (My guess is that most of the people here will be N's and probably NT's at that). If you have heard of it, post thoughts on it or the different types and post your own aswell!
54 replies
Open
cardwarrior (10 DX)
12 Aug 10 UTC
Refuse to UNPAUSE
I'm in the Game World War V. One of the players had a problem and asked for a game pause. Now everyone is ready to play again, but a player on the verge of being defeated, refuses to UNPAUSE. How can we resolve this?
14 replies
Open
gman314 (100 D)
13 Aug 10 UTC
Abbreviations
What does WTA stand for?
2 replies
Open
Conservative Man (100 D)
11 Aug 10 UTC
There should be 3 axis on the political compass
Government spending and taxes don't belong on the same axis as the amount of market limitation. What do you think?
18 replies
Open
stratagos (3269 D(S))
10 Aug 10 UTC
UFOs exist


They just, y'know, *do*. And you're either blind or part of The Conspiracy if you disagree
115 replies
Open
Agent K (0 DX)
12 Aug 10 UTC
Super High Stakes
In honor of 50 Cent, I have created this game.

http://www.webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=35612
5 replies
Open
Live game at Oli
Is anybody around here willing to play live game on different map.
I was thinking about playing on this one: http://olidip.net/variants.php#BuildAnywhere or http://olidip.net/variants.php#ClassicFog or http://olidip.net/variants.php#Crowded or http://olidip.net/variants.php#SevenIslands
8 replies
Open
orathaic (1009 D(B))
12 Aug 10 UTC
Eurodipcon
Anyone going?
http://www.eurodipcon.com/en/european-championship-of-diplomacy-2010.php
4 replies
Open
pyrofpz (0 DX)
12 Aug 10 UTC
so
for all you peeps out there, theres two live games goin on, you should join.
see i bit my pillow, ive already eaten before im not eating it again
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=35641
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=35640
6 replies
Open
cujo8400 (300 D)
07 Aug 10 UTC
Start a Dynasty in the Juggernaut Football League!
http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com/league/juggernautfl

Only 12 spots left.
More info below!
4 replies
Open
Haryu (106 D)
12 Aug 10 UTC
where are you?
http://www.webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=35652
0 replies
Open
Thucydides (864 D(B))
08 Aug 10 UTC
"Invent a clever saying and your name will live forever!" -Anonymous
heh
29 replies
Open
Bob (742 D)
12 Aug 10 UTC
Time Lapses Are Awesome
Though the definition of awesome is highly controversial, I believe it is safe to say that Time Lapses of multi-directional clouds, where two layers of clouds are going in opposing directions, are quite awesome. See below:
1 reply
Open
Draugnar (0 DX)
12 Aug 10 UTC
Take down killer135 a notch.
Who wants to join a game to take him down a notch? Anonymous (so he can't whine about being ganged up on), 24-48 hours, classic, WTA, full press.
118 replies
Open
pyrofpz (0 DX)
12 Aug 10 UTC
jaja
jajashdkjas new game jc
2 replies
Open
Agent K (0 DX)
12 Aug 10 UTC
50 cent thread slash Best Rapper Thread
Also join this large pot game.
http://www.webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=35612
0 replies
Open
pyrofpz (0 DX)
12 Aug 10 UTC
new game
i swear to god if no one starts going to join these live games, im eating my pillow.

http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=35637
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=35639
4 replies
Open
pyrofpz (0 DX)
12 Aug 10 UTC
new game
you better join this one. gdit
3 replies
Open
pyrofpz (0 DX)
12 Aug 10 UTC
live game
join now.
4 replies
Open
pyrofpz (0 DX)
12 Aug 10 UTC
yo
yo yo yo, like theres hella new live games that i swear you should join man.
Itll be awesome
2 replies
Open
curtis (8870 D)
12 Aug 10 UTC
wta gunboat live
gameID=35626

Need 4 players...
4 replies
Open
Crazyter (1335 D(G))
08 Aug 10 UTC
GR Challenge on Ancient Med WTA Anon
Anyone in the top 200 GR interested in a WTA anon game on the ancient med variant? I played my first game on that variant recently and liked it a lot except for the CDs.
20 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
10 Aug 10 UTC
Let's Roleplay Here For a Bit...
We seem to have most of our philosophical discussions come back to the God Question. But I think we misunderstand those with different views often. So--Christians/Jews/People Of Any Faith, answer the following questions as if you were an Atheist or Mitigated Skeptic (ie, "We just don't/can't know yet) and Atheists/Skeptics, answer as you think a Person of Faith would. You may ONLY answer as "yourself" and/or criticize/correct other posts AFTER you yourself have posted.
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
10 Aug 10 UTC
1. Does God exist, has He ever existed, and can He ever exist?
2. What is your reasoning (belief, logic, science, scripture, etc.) for your answer?
3. Is God known and understood/if you believe in a deity, do we already know how He/It operates, ex. As the Bible says God is and operates, or is God/any deity unknown in its nature?
4. If the answer to #3 is “Yes,” how “well” do we/can we know God/ if the answer is “No” and you believe there is a deity, what reason do you have for not believing or holding with the Biblical account?
5. If you believe God is good, why is God good; if you believe He is/would be bad, why is he bad?
6. How much do you care about/follow/are influenced by the Bible/Torah/Koran?
7. How much do you care about/follow/are influenced by scientific or philosophical writings?
8. What three theological/philosophical writers do you most “hold with” and why?
9. How important is religion to *insert your nation here*?
10. What do you think of Jesus?
11. What do you think of Moses?
12. What do you think of Muhammad?
13. What do you think of Richard Dawkins?
14. What do you think of Christopher Hitchens?
15. What do you think of Friedrich Nietzsche?
16. Do you yourself own a Bible/copy of Dawkins/Hitchens/Nietzsche/Hume/Sartre/Etc.?
17. Do you quote from the Bible/above authors, and if so, how often, and for what purpose?
18. How important is the Sabbath/Religious Holidays to you/for atheists, what do you think of these?
19. How important is Church/Temple/Mosque to you?
20. With your belief/non-belief as an impact on your life, what is your view on:
- Morality (ie, what’s “Good/Right,” what’s “Evil/Wrong?”
-The meaning of our existence
-A Heaven and Hell
-The OTHER “group” in this survey (so those who answered as a Believer, how do you see Atheists/Skeptics as people and their views, and Atheists, how do you view the Believers?)
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
11 Aug 10 UTC
OK, now as I'm a Mitigated Skeptic, I'm answering as a Believer...I was raised Jewish but not heavily, so my answers will mostly be a mix of Jewish and Christian ideals, to cover both there, and I'll try to respond as a moderate and as an American.

1. Yes, God exists.

2. The Bible, the First Mover argument, and just my own personal belief

3. Well, we can't know everything about God, he's God, right, he's a lot more powerful and just higher than us, so we really can't know everything, but God spoke to Abraham and he gave us his word, and the Bible is his word, and he's Perfect, so as that's his Perfect Word, ?I think we can say what we know of God in the Bible we know for certain

4. Like I just said, we know Him as well as the Bible allows for, and besides that, as much as He speaks to us

5. I believe God is good, and that this is so because he created man, loved man, has seen me through many hard times when I needed guidance, and besides all of that his Ten Commandments are the basis for all morality, and they seem to work pretty well

6. I listen during Services, but I don't play a Ned Flanders and read the Bible every single day at every single hour and preach it every single moment, that's not necessary to be a good person or to be a Person of God...it's important, but not vital

7. I don't read scientific journals, that's just not my thing, not good with math or anything...philosophy's interesting, and I like some of it, I don't study it heavily, but it's certainly interesting and makes you think sometimes...

8. Moses because...he's the leader of my people, the folks who wrote the Old Testament as, again, my people and my beliefs, and John Locke, since I had to read him in Ethics class and thought most of what he had to say was dead-on, plus his ideas helped found America, so there you go

9. Religion is very important to America...we shouldn't become a pontif state or anything, but really, without the moral ideals of God and the Bible, I think there would be a lot missing from America, or any nation, really...all nations should ahve at least some religious background, though not a backBONE, seperation of church and state is necessary, even if I think it should be done maybe a little less

10. Asesome guy, one of the greatest people in history...I still think the Messiah is still to come, but hey, maybe that'll be Jesus on the Second Coming folks talk about, and if it is, I'll get right behind him

11. I love Moses as a personal hero, leader of my people, what more can I say?

12. I...don't really know or care too much about him...

13. Richard Dawkins is crap.

14. Christopher Hitchens is less-famous crap.

15. Friedrich Nietzsche had a couple neat ideas, but mostly, CRAP, that guy needed a HUG in his life, for God's sake!

16. I own a Bible, yes (though I mostly only care about the Old Testament)

17. I don't read the Bible too much myself, so I don't know enough to quote it...I'd like to, though, not too much, but some quotes would be cool and useful...

18. I respect the Sabbath but don't go overboard, but holy holidays I really respect, those are very important to men, and really give guidance, and you have to show due respect to God

19. I love going to Temple, it's such a great community thing, and it's nice to be in a place where everyone has the same ideas as me and we're all People of God here, "Chosen People" and all that, though I don't want to make to much of that...but it DOES tell you something that we're always together through God's grace and our own effort as a community with all the horrors we've faced, doesn't it? God leads his people...

20. My view on:

-Morality: Follow the Ten Commandments and God's word and you're there
-The Meaning of Existence: To be God's Chosen People and to live a good life, do what God aks if he tells me to do something, and hopefully pass in his graces, maybe even a Heaven...
-A Heaven and Hell: I don't know if there's a heaven so much as just being there WITH God, though that's probably Heaven enough...and I sure hope there's a hell, because God knows there's plenty of people who need to go to hell, plus, without a Hell and God, there are no ultimate consequences, and then what's to stop us from all being evil and just animal-like monsters...God's morality is a good morality, his word is good, and nowhere is this more evident than the Heaven/Hell concept, and who goes where, atoning for sins and being rewarded for good deeds--who doesn't want that?

20. Atheists and Skeptics...frankly I think they're lost, and just taking logical pot shots at ideas that are too great for man to really tangle with...there ARE logical issues in the Bible, but come on--if God can create all of existence out of nothing, I think he just a BIT ABOVE LOGIC, don't you think? They're not evil or any of that, just misguided in their ideas, or, really, that's just it, they DON'T have ideas, they just like attacking the ideas of others...atheists and a lot of "philosophy" does this, philosophy is important, but there's a limit...saying "God is Dead" is ridiculous, and really philosophy takes an easy idea and overcomplicates it to see correct, when it's all just wordplay, and inconsequential wordplay at that, with God being THE End of All Debate.
mapleleaf (0 DX)
11 Aug 10 UTC
I have one word for you, troll.

Ritalin.
DJEcc24 (246 D)
11 Aug 10 UTC
I'm a believer so i will answer as a non-believer i think thats what the post said to do.

1. God does not exist or may exist. I find no scientific evidence of it.
2.Science. too much evidence for evolution and other theories
3. i do not believe there is a personal God
4.just doesn't stand up
5. he is bad because he sends good people to hell and lets bad thigns happen to good people.
6. not influenced at all.
7. i am influenced by scientific writings because i can see the evidence.
8. i havent payed much attention to any of them to know.
9. Its important to the united States but i think that atheism is rising.
10. Good guy but not the son of God
11. leader who did some good stuff for his people.
12. not the prophet
13. i don;t know who that is actually
14. no idea who that is again
15. again who is that.
16. i own a bible but only because it was given to me and it has some good morals.
17. no because the bible is as credible as any other book.
18. i do not find religious holidays legit and find them to be based off of pagan holidays.
19.Churches are not important and are messed up.
20. With your belief/non-belief as an impact on your life, what is your view on:
i can have good morals and lead a good life but there is no God and no heaven or hell i will just die and be eaten by worms.
DJEcc24 (246 D)
11 Aug 10 UTC
so whats the point of acting like the other?
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
11 Aug 10 UTC
@mapleleaf:

If you don't like my posts, you don't have to come...and calling me a troll when you yourself...again, throwing stones while you yourself are in a glass house...seriously, if you don't like my posts then why come in and say so, not even arguing or debating but just coming in to say "You suck!" and run off giggling? Grow up.

@DJEcc24:

Because I want to see how much we really know about the other side when debating, I mean, we so often oppose each other's viewpoints, but do we really know what those viewpoints clearly are and where they're coming from?

The same way I'd say the Israelis should try and see things from the Palestinian's perspective before they call them terrorists (those that they do call terrorists) and that the Palestinians should try and see things from the Israeli perspective before calling them oppressive people.

Well, look at my answers as a person of faith--is that an accurate representation of what you believe, or am I way off on something?

And I look at yours...and vice versa.

I mean, we have so many God Debates, and we criticize the views of the other side enough--might as well see if we really understand and get the views we're attempting to criticize or debate or take issue with, you know?
DJEcc24 (246 D)
11 Aug 10 UTC
ah i see what you mean now. personally i think it would be easier to know what an atheist belives than a believer because an atheist is the lack of believing.
Thucydides (864 D(B))
11 Aug 10 UTC
As a skeptic, posing as a Christian:

1. Does God exist, has He ever existed, and can He ever exist?

Of course God exists. He desires a personal relationship with each and every one of us and has reached out to us through the death and resurrection of his only son, Jesus Christ.

2. What is your reasoning (belief, logic, science, scripture, etc.) for your answer?

Combined with a faith in God, which is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see, I also have numerous archaeological findings that back up individual statements made in the Bible which back it up as the inspired word of God. The prophecies is Isaiah, for instance, correlate nearly exactly with the events of Jesus' life, though they were written some 800 years prior.

3. Is God known and understood/if you believe in a deity, do we already know how He/It operates, ex. As the Bible says God is and operates, or is God/any deity unknown in its nature?

God works in mysterious ways and the ways of God are infinitely greater than man's. To try to fully understand him would be like a paramecium trying to understand us. However, the Bible does provide some insight into his character in nature, in terms we can understand. That is all we know, but there is doubtlessly much much more to know about God, though we cannot understand it.

4. If the answer to #3 is “Yes,” how “well” do we/can we know God/ if the answer is “No” and you believe there is a deity, what reason do you have for not believing or holding with the Biblical account?

The reason I have for holding to the Biblical account is that the Bible itself claims to be the inspired word of God. I have given reasons above for why the Bible can be trusted to be the inspired word of God.

5. If you believe God is good, why is God good; if you believe He is/would be bad, why is he bad?

Romans 8:28 says "And we know that God causes everything to work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose for them." So of course God is good. God loves his creation and wants to best for us! That is why he sent Jesus to die for us.

6. How much do you care about/follow/are influenced by the Bible/Torah/Koran?

The Bible is the most important book in print. Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth. BIBLE. One should know it forwards and backwards and live in it everyday, taking in its unfathomable wisdom.

7. How much do you care about/follow/are influenced by scientific or philosophical writings?

They matter, of course, but they do not compare to the truths in the Bible. The Bible says to beware of the false prophets, and though not all science and philosophy is from the devil, some of it surely is. So it is to be followed and understood but always looked at through the lens of the worldview of a Bible-believer.

8. What three theological/philosophical writers do you most “hold with” and why?

(This just got hard... since I was writing as a Southern Baptist.. I'm going to give it my best shot):
Probably Josh McDowell, Michael Behe and Thomas Aquinas. St. Augustine too I guess, though that's four.

9. How important is religion to *insert your nation here*?

God has truly blessed America, but it is only because we were founded on Christian principles. We turn away from those principles in the current days at our own peril, but for now we remain truly the greatest nation on earth in every way.

10. What do you think of Jesus?

Jesus is the Son of God, the Messiah, and the most important person to ever live. He never sinned, never married, never did anything but good. His words are truly golden. His death and resurrection are the basis of my beliefs and he deserves eternal worship for his sacrifice for us. We can never repay that debt.

11. What do you think of Moses?

Moses led the Israelites out of Egypt and had a very close relationship with God. He was a good man, but not as important as the Jews make him out to be. In heaven, to be sure. See Exodus for details.

12. What do you think of Muhammad?

Remember when I was talking about "false prophets"? This guy tops the list. No one has been more inspired by Satan to distort the words of God and use elements of Christian belief to his own advantage, creating a violent and oppressive religion which poses an existential threat to us all.

13. What do you think of Richard Dawkins?

An abrasive and rude man, who is so committed to thrashing religion that he has become almost a religious figure himself. All I can say is that if most Christians had half the fervor he has, the faith would be reborn. Truly a vile man.

14. What do you think of Christopher Hitchens?

While respectful and articulate, he is much the same as Richard Dawkins - devoting his life to separating people from God.

15. What do you think of Friedrich Nietzsche?

Godless man. Don't know much about him though...

(lol)

16. Do you yourself own a Bible/copy of Dawkins/Hitchens/Nietzsche/Hume/Sartre/Etc.?

Of course...!

17. Do you quote from the Bible/above authors, and if so, how often, and for what purpose?

I quote the Bible all the time to enrich my life and the lives of others for the Bible tells us to write its words on our hearts, that we may not forget them. If I quote the others it is to show how idiotic they are.

18. How important is the Sabbath/Religious Holidays to you/for atheists, what do you think of these?

The Sabbath is meant to be a day of rest and a day of reflection on God. Though it is no longer a day where no one works, (perhaps unfortunately), it is still meant to be a day in which one communes with fellow believers and takes a break from worldly things.

19. How important is Church/Temple/Mosque to you?

It is the house of God, but need not be ornamented. Primarily, it is useful for fellowshipping with other believers and growing together in the Word, and as a launching point for reaching out into the community, and for worship together of God.

20. With your belief/non-belief as an impact on your life, what is your view on:
- Morality (ie, what’s “Good/Right,” what’s “Evil/Wrong?”
-The meaning of our existence
-A Heaven and Hell
-The OTHER “group”
Thucydides (864 D(B))
11 Aug 10 UTC
To sum up: I think I have a pretty darn good idea of what Christians think. Evangelical Christians anyway not so much Catholics, Orthodox or mainline. Or weird types like Mormon and Unitarian or whatever.
mapleleaf (0 DX)
11 Aug 10 UTC
@Thucy - Wow, you're pretty principled for a wanker who earns his money by exploiting seniors and Chinese industrial slave children.

LOL.
DJEcc24 (246 D)
11 Aug 10 UTC
pretty good thucy. i didn;'t have many arguments with it besides your excessive use of exclamation points. do you believe in God? oh yes i do!
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
11 Aug 10 UTC
Wow, that was spot on, Thucy, most of the folks I engage in debate on the bus or in class or wherever that are Christian give answers a lot like that...a couple were almost word-for-word spot on!
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
11 Aug 10 UTC
(Just as a side note--I don't really know much about his work myself except he's an atheistic philosooher and a contemporary of Dawkins, read a bit from one of his books once and it...well, it was better and more of an polite and relying-on-logic argument against God than the rely-on-embarassment tactic that Dawkins uses, but still eh, but anyway...

Anyone else here Christopher Hitchens is battling cancer, I don't know how long that's been news, just found out yesterday...hope he beats it, agree with him hor not, terrible way to go, cancer...)
I'm an agnostic Christian. I'll just answer honestly since I fit into neither group.

1. Does God exist, has He ever existed, and can He ever exist?

I don't know. I believe so, but I won't claim to know. Those answers apply to the first two. Yes, He *can* exist.

2. What is your reasoning (belief, logic, science, scripture, etc.) for your answer?

I find that, while contemporary science has done a marvelous job of explaining the creation of life, it and religion are both incomplete and always will be. It's a faith decision. My faith inclines toward God.

3. Is God known and understood/if you believe in a deity, do we already know how He/It operates, ex. As the Bible says God is and operates, or is God/any deity unknown in its nature?

Again, I don't know. I tend to worry less about the nature of God than what I should be doing personally. If God is reasonable, then if I make a reasonable, concerted effort to do good and actually do good things... and, naturally, make the necessary jumps of faith... then I should satisfy him. If He is not, it matters not if I satisfy Him, only if I do good. (And yes, the faith thing is a bugger to defend. I couldn't, myself, not very well. Please don't ask me to.)

4. If the answer to #3 is “Yes,” how “well” do we/can we know God/ if the answer is “No” and you believe there is a deity, what reason do you have for not believing or holding with the Biblical account?

I lean toward not being able to understand the mechanics of how God operates... the reason is simply that such belief is necessary if I hold that I cannot know if there is a God. And even so, frankly, the Biblical picture of God is inconsistent and not useful for modern practical application.

5. If you believe God is good, why is God good; if you believe He is/would be bad, why is he bad?

I believe he is good, but I don't know. I couldn't rationally justify my thoughts, it's entirely intuitive...

6. How much do you care about/follow/are influenced by the Bible/Torah/Koran?

I accept the most basic tenets of initiation into Christianity... from there I look to it mainly as inspiration. The dogma of it doesn't impress me, and I know that sounds smug but that's how it is.

7. How much do you care about/follow/are influenced by scientific or philosophical writings?

Honestly, much more than religious scripture. I weigh each bit of scripture and scientific/philosophical writings equally, but the latter is generally more convincing.

8. What three theological/philosophical writers do you most “hold with” and why?

Hm... that's something on which I am woefully illiterate. I count myself in those three, not that I'm in any way an educated writer or professional writer, but my own thoughts match with me the most, of course. Jesus gets an easy second. The third... one of any number.

9. How important is religion to *insert your nation here*?

America? Too important. The nation is founded on the principle of religion being protected under law, but not enforced -- and daily its leaders misstep on either extreme.

10. What do you think of Jesus?

Savior, of course. Beyond that he's little more to me than a wonderful philosopher among many (though the whole savior bit puts him over the top).

11. What do you think of Moses?

No real opinion. His leadership qualities are admirable, leading a group of grouchy bitchy Israelites through a desert all of his adult life.

12. What do you think of Muhammad?

Another important philosopher. I don't weigh him as high as Jesus, of course, but he's valuable. I haven't read as much of his work as perhaps I ought.

13. What do you think of Richard Dawkins?

Very insightful man on the scientific view of the world. I don't have as much of a problem with his take on religion; one, it's a logical extension of his view of things, and two, a lot of what he attacks are things I don't like about religion, either.

14. What do you think of Christopher Hitchens?

I've not read enough on him to have an opinion, but I believe he's an atheist philosopher, no? I really should be better-read...

15. What do you think of Friedrich Nietzsche?

I want to read his work a lot more. I find it really fascinating. Ran a debate case for LD off of him once... really fun to work. But religiously speaking? Too ignorant to speak on him.

16. Do you yourself own a Bible/copy of Dawkins/Hitchens/Nietzsche/Hume/Sartre/Etc.?

My roommate has my copy of "The God Delusion." ...Yes, a Christian is allowed to own "The God Delusion." Stop glaring at me!

17. Do you quote from the Bible/above authors, and if so, how often, and for what purpose?

Not very often, but usually to make a point succinctly and impactfully moreso than I may on my own. That's what I do with most any quote, really.

18. How important is the Sabbath/Religious Holidays to you/for atheists, what do you think of these?

Not very. I intend to get into a routine of weekly private meditation, but when it is... that's far too arbitrary for the creator of the universe to mind.

19. How important is Church/Temple/Mosque to you?

Only as far as acquiring different points of view is concerned is it important. I don't *want* my beliefs to be reinforced because odds are they aren't perfect and reinforcement makes it tougher to adjust the flaws.

20. With your belief/non-belief as an impact on your life, what is your view on:

- Morality (ie, what’s “Good/Right,” what’s “Evil/Wrong?”
Objective, ultimately cannot be known by man, but a working knowledge of it based off of pragmatic considerations can be constructed.

-The meaning of our existence
To create. Humans are unique in their level of intellectual development and their capacity to appreciate and desire to replicate creation. That uniqueness oughtn't be wasted.

-A Heaven and Hell
They may be there. I believe they're there. I don't let THAT guide my actions... personal gain ought not be the basis of moral decisions

There. I'm a weird Christian. Is answering like this OK? I don't really divide cleanly into your groups...
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
11 Aug 10 UTC
Wait, right off the bat--how can you be an agnostic Christian?

Isn't agnosticism the idea there's an answer but it is not yet known/is currently unknowable?

That seems to contradict a Christian grounding, that saying that they know the answer, or at least insofar as they know God and Jesus as the savior and all that...

So how do those both fit together, they seem contradictory...?
DJEcc24 (246 D)
11 Aug 10 UTC
can i answer the questions as a christian now that i answered them as an atheist?
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
11 Aug 10 UTC
Yes, please.
"Wait, right off the bat--how can you be an agnostic Christian?"

One can simultaneously acknowledge he does not know the answer to a question and believe the answer is A... no?
killer135 (100 D)
11 Aug 10 UTC
Hold up, so basically, in the start off question, You're asking Christians not to be Christian? One can't think like an Atheist if he's supposed to believe in god, as Ironically it's against religion.
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
11 Aug 10 UTC
But don't you have to "accept" Jesus?

That seems to leave little room for not knowing that seems sort of like saying "I do not know the answer...but I believe Jesus is the answer strong enough for it to count."
dubmdell (556 D)
11 Aug 10 UTC
@obiwan - in my experience, most agnostic Christians were raised Christian, prayed to receive Christ, and have since had their faith shaken. So by Christian standards, they are saved (and there's doctrine to back up that they can't lose salvation even if they lose their faith), but they aren't sure that what they used to believe is true.

So there's doubt, but should the doubt be removed, the answer would be C. I suppose it's really more akin to soft atheistic Christianity as opposed to agnostic Christianity, but the definitions are really quite muddled by non-academics.
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
11 Aug 10 UTC
Well...for lack of a better way of putting it, that almost sounds like cheating theologically.

You get the benefit of being able to say you're open-minded and not dogma-bound and are open to question everything about any faith ever...

And you still get the benefit of having that Jesus Safety Net.
dubmdell basically said it (right down to nailing my non-academic status... ;) ), but I would say that it's not cheating (of course I would). I basically only accept the very very core fundamental dogma -- the resurrection story and needing to believe in Christ -- because, while I believe it strongly enough to be considered Christian, I do strongly disagree with a lot of the religion.

It's not "cheating"... rather, it's me being honest with myself. I don't know if any of this is true, honestly. Logically I cannot say I do, and I refuse to accept that I must delude myself into thinking I do to be part of a religion. Why is that burden placed on me?

And the Jesus Safety Net... frankly, I don't care if I have it or not. I said it before for one of the answers: personal gain ought not be the reason behind moral action. It is moral precisely because it is "right" without consideration for what I get out of it. It's nice to have, don't get me wrong... but it's not a motivator behind my actions. (In fact, a logical extension would be that it's a *demotivator* - why care about doing the right thing if you're going to eternal bliss regardless?)
And this question, because it's important.

"But don't you have to "accept" Jesus?"

Yes, you do. I accept that tenet on faith. But why, again, am I being burdened to reject the objective FACT that I cannot empirically or rationally justify the claim?
DJEcc24 (246 D)
11 Aug 10 UTC
Answering as the christian i am now


1. Does God exist, has He ever existed, and can He ever exist?
Yes sir he does.
2. What is your reasoning (belief, logic, science, scripture, etc.) for your answer?
well i believe Jesus was the Christ based off of lack of evidence against his ressurection and if he ended up raising from the dead then the rest of the stuff he did was legit makin him who he said he was the son of God. So if Jesus rose from the dead then God is there. if you follow my reasoning.
3. Is God known and understood/if you believe in a deity, do we already know how He/It operates, ex. As the Bible says God is and operates, or is God/any deity unknown in its nature?

We can understand his character and what he thinks as sin but we won't fully understand everything about him. just like we won;t understand everything other humans do
4. If the answer to #3 is “Yes,” how “well” do we/can we know God/ if the answer is “No” and you believe there is a deity, what reason do you have for not believing or holding with the Biblical account?
i believe we can understand how God works and that it is able to be translated to daily terms
5. If you believe God is good, why is God good; if you believe He is/would be bad, why is he bad?
I believe he is good because he gave humans the choice to believe in him or not and didn't make us puppets on a string. he wants to have a relationship with us and doesn't want to force us into it. He gives us the opportunity to go to heaven if we believe in him. He is good because the bible says he can't even look upon sin yet alone have it in heaven.
6. How much do you care about/follow/are influenced by the Bible/Torah/Koran?
The bible is the word of God and i believe that it is important
7. How much do you care about/follow/are influenced by scientific or philosophical writings?
i enjoy philosophy and i really enjoy science as a subject. i actually believe in parts of evolution. just not the kind that has fish changing to reptiles. cause if God did create the world he created science too.
8. What three theological/philosophical writers do you most “hold with” and why?
Lee Strobel- wrote some good books that i enjoyed and helped me in research. I also like C.S. Lewis and Francis Chan
9. How important is religion to *insert your nation here*?
America thinks religion important. my friend from Norway was very surprised at the religious influence. i do think that there should be a separation of church and state but if it wasn't for religious freedom this country wouldn't be the same.
10. What do you think of Jesus?
Son of God, died for our sins, rose again
11. What do you think of Moses?
Cool dude, followed God
12. What do you think of Muhammad?
confused guy who wanted to start a one God religion because he was impressed by Judaism. False Prophet
13. What do you think of Richard Dawkins?
idk the guy. is he that atheist author?
14. What do you think of Christopher Hitchens?
idk the guy
15. What do you think of Friedrich Nietzsche?
idk the guy
16. Do you yourself own a Bible/copy of Dawkins/Hitchens/Nietzsche/Hume/Sartre/Etc.?
yeah i do. multiple
17. Do you quote from the Bible/above authors, and if so, how often, and for what purpose?
i try to know some but i'm not quoting it all the time.
18. How important is the Sabbath/Religious Holidays to you/for atheists, what do you think of these?
important enough. i enjoy a day of rest but find it sad that it has turned into a day of work. Religious holidays are a good way to remember what God has done.
19. How important is Church/Temple/Mosque to you?
i love Church, the fellowship is important to me and worshiping with others. the people help you along in life and are there for you. i don;t think its corrupt just a bunch of people that make mistakes sometimes.
20. With your belief/non-belief as an impact on your life, what is your view on:
- Morality (ie, what’s “Good/Right,” what’s “Evil/Wrong?”
-The meaning of our existence
-A Heaven and Hell
-The OTHER “group” in this survey (so those who answered as a Believer, how do you see Atheists/Skeptics as people and their views, and Atheists, how do you view the Believers?)





ok so did anything surprise you guys or is that the general answers?
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
11 Aug 10 UTC
@President Eden:

This issue as I see it, the reason I'd consider it "cheating," is...

Well, this might spark a logic-fight (I hope not, though) bit I see your position akin to essentially taking up Pascal's Wager...and I think that the Wager is a terrible idea.

Leaving aside the reasons why I think the Wager fails from a metaphysical point of view, taking the Wager up is essentially an insurance policy, ie, to take the Wager is essentially believing because, well, if you do and are right you get Heaven, a +1, if you do and are wrong you get nothing, a 0, if you don't believe and are wrong you go to Hell and that's a big -1, and if you don't believe and are right you have lost nothing again, and so 0...simple mathematics would seem to suggest that the "safe bet" is Pascal's Wager, ie, "It's Safer To Just Believe...Just In Case."

I think that there's actually a way in which the Wager itself can be HARMFUL that Pascal doesn't allow for, but I won't get into that here and make this an epic post, if anyone truly cares let me know and I'll gladly qualify and clarify that point, but for now I'll stick with my objection here.

You say that you believe enough in Jesus to...believe in Jesus, but not strongly enough/have doubts to the xtent you can question that belief.

As much as I despise dogmatism, that just seems like wishy-washy reasoning and weak faith.

You believe in Jesus enough, essentially, to be saved if all that's true, but not enough to believe him totally, as is generally the covenant of that deal.

That just sort of seems like you're trying to straddle the fence and get the best of both worlds without having to screw yourself out of either side; you don't "give Jesus" the sort of total acceptance (that is to say, unquestioning acceptance, a true leap of faith, as a true leap of faith is one where you fully take the plunge and do NOT allow for that backdoor "maybe it's wrong..." bit) that is generally what is supposed to be/required as a covenant between you and he in exchange for his salvation (or so it goes, roughly) and at the same time you claim to be an agnostic and seeking an answer, when you really already have one, again, as a sort of safety net, and this is just exploring without the "danger of sin," so to speak.


Just doesn't seem really right, seems like your position's either not fully defined/developed or else you're trying to have it both ways, searching for a belief while keeping Jesus in your back pocket just in case he turns out to be the answer so you don't go to Hell...besides which, again--

You have enough faith to believe in him for him to save you from eternal damnation and all that jazz and bring you to a heavenly kingdom and all that...but not enough to even grant your would-be Savior's word and powers as the truth and totally believe in his being, which seems a pretty cheap price for all that the Bible says he's offering?

I know if I were in his shoes I'd be saying "You expect me to save you, and you won't even totally grant my existence as I claim and my word? That's not a lot to ask...come on, really, I'm supposed to do all this for you and you won't even do that one little thing for me, and do it all the way? SHALLOW, man, SHALLOW..."

If I were Jesus, that is. :p
Thucydides (864 D(B))
11 Aug 10 UTC
Mapleleaf - what the hell is wrong with you? You antagonize everyone.
Since your post is essentially the same few points restated eloquently multiple times, I'm going to try to pick those points out instead of hitting everything. Hope that's alright, and if I miss one let me know.

"Well, this might spark a logic-fight (I hope not, though) bit I see your position akin to essentially taking up Pascal's Wager...and I think that the Wager is a terrible idea."

I'm not a fan of the Wager either. That's not really the reasoning behind it... again, I'm not doing it to get my little get out of hell free card. If that's someone's reason for joining a faith, they're in trouble anyway... more than one religion of the thousands on this planet requires exclusive worship, I'm sure, so it's not like I went "Oh, well that hell place sounds shitty, but I'm not really sold, let's just buy into this to avoid it but not REALLY believe it."

"As much as I despise dogmatism, that just seems like wishy-washy reasoning and weak faith."

I don't think it's wishy-washy reasoning to acknowledge the fact that, as a being whose senses are strictly limited to observing the natural world, I cannot know whether or not something beyond the natural world is there or not. It IS weak faith, I do completely grant that... perhaps I should elaborate. Around a year ago now -- to the day on Friday, incidentally -- I deconverted (if that's the word) from Christianity because I was thoroughly unsatisfied with the answers I'd been getting. Three weeks ago I started looking at the faith again from the perspective I'd gained in that year, and three days ago was when I more or less returned to the religion. (I say "more or less;" a close friend of mine walked me through the steps, but I didn't do anything formal in a church setting.) So yes, my faith right now is fledgling.

"You believe in Jesus enough, essentially, to be saved if all that's true, but not enough to believe him totally, as is generally the covenant of that deal."

What are you looking for me to say? I still don't understand why I'm prohibited from acknowledging the natural limits upon what I may literally *know* as opposed to knowing in the sense of strongly believing.

"Just doesn't seem really right, seems like your position's either not fully defined/developed or else you're trying to have it both ways"

The former. Definitely the former. I don't know that it will ever be fully defined or developed, either. I'm not claiming to have all the answers -- if I do make a claim, or act as if I do, call me on it, because I don't and I don't wish to imply I do. Nowhere near. (And if this exercise was strictly for those who did... well, with all due respect, I would ask no one respond.)

"I know if I were in his shoes I'd be saying "You expect me to save you, and you won't even totally grant my existence as I claim and my word? That's not a lot to ask...come on, really, I'm supposed to do all this for you and you won't even do that one little thing for me, and do it all the way? SHALLOW, man, SHALLOW...""

Well, first, if Jesus appeared and said that to me I'd have no more room to doubt his existence, would I? ;) But... come on. The man's only believed appearance on Earth was before my time. As far as I can tell, he's never come to me in a form I can unequivocally say is him. Putting belief that he's there is a significant step in and of itself considering how much science has managed to explain without the God step... I'm simply not keen on the notion that I must reject what I know to be true (that I don't truly honestly know, 100%, undoubtedly, that he is there) to be a "real" Christian.
hopsyturvy (521 D)
11 Aug 10 UTC
A hardened atheist, posting as the Christian I might have been - at one point my school chaplain suggested I consider becoming a priest, and my faith was very much like his at that point (moderate, rather wooly CofE): it might give some of you into perhaps the most common type of christian this side of the pond, rather different to what we see (stereotyped, perhaps) in the States.

1. Does God exist, has He ever existed, and can He ever exist?

Yes. God exists outside time and space

2. What is your reasoning (belief, logic, science, scripture, etc.) for your answer?

If you look for archaelogical, historical, or scientific evidence, you won't find it. But we can experience God in intangible qualities such as love, our universal sense of right and wrong, wonder at the world and purpose in it.

3. Is God known and understood/if you believe in a deity, do we already know how He/It operates, ex. As the Bible says God is and operates, or is God/any deity unknown in its nature?

The bible is a guide, written for its time, and should be understood and interpreted as such. God can be reached through prayer and meditation - but not as a voice, or entity, but as that which calls us to be who we are or who we can be. True understanding of God awaits us in another reality. "Now we see through a glass darkly, then we will see face to face"

4. If the answer to #3 is “Yes,” how “well” do we/can we know God/ if the answer is “No” and you believe there is a deity, what reason do you have for not believing or holding with the Biblical account?

The biblical account contains much that is useful and beautiful, but plenty that disagrees with our experience and evidence of our senses. It is the experience of God filtered by time, translation, multiple authors and the prejudices of ancient peoples - but as the experience of God, contains important truths at its core.

5. If you believe God is good, why is God good; if you believe He is/would be bad, why is he bad?

Good comes from God.

6. How much do you care about/follow/are influenced by the Bible/Torah/Koran?

I am familiar with much of the bible, and find study rewarding - but it is not the only route to God.

7. How much do you care about/follow/are influenced by scientific or philosophical writings?

You can only know the truth of your beliefs if you subject them to question. Philosphers and scientists have uncovered many truths about ourselves and the world, and this can sharpen and define your faith - but science is not a search for God.

8. What three theological/philosophical writers do you most “hold with” and why?

I hae found

9. How important is religion to *insert your nation here*?

The UK is increasingly secular, and church attendance is declining - but the vast majority still hold private faith.

10. What do you think of Jesus?

Jesus was a human, not a perfect being - he shared our strengths and weaknesses, and showed us how to transcend him. I'm not sure about the concept of trinity myself..

11. What do you think of Moses?

There's good evidence that he existed and was a strong leader with a close relationship with God, but the entire account need not be interpreted literally.

12. What do you think of Muhammad?

The more I read, the more I think he was a charlatan pure and simple. His followers, though, have much in common with Christians and we should embrace that.

13. What do you think of Richard Dawkins?

He does the atheist cause no favour with his vitriolic and divisive stances. He's a smart thinker on scientific principles, but shows arrogance in refusing to contemplate the possibility that science can't explain everything. Reading him has given me lots to think about, all the same.

14. What do you think of Christopher Hitchens?

Much as above - he's less divisive than Dawkins, but I'm not sure why - both can be unreasonable and narrowheaded at times, both are also excellent writers and clear thinkers and I've learned a lot from reading them.

15. What do you think of Friedrich Nietzsche?

Such as I've read didn't really impress me.

16. Do you yourself own a Bible/copy of Dawkins/Hitchens/Nietzsche/Hume/Sartre/Etc.?

I don't own a bible. I do have some hitchens and nietzche in my collection...

17. Do you quote from the Bible/above authors, and if so, how often, and for what purpose?

The bible is an incredibly rich source and people often paraphrase it without realising. I don't conciously quote it in everyday conversation, even in philosophical discussions.

18. How important is the Sabbath/Religious Holidays to you/for atheists, what do you think of these?

It's important to take time to reflect and pray - the actual timing of it is not so important, but the established routines are tried and tested.

19. How important is Church/Temple/Mosque to you?

I find churches inspiring as places, and gathering together is an important part of worship.

20. With your belief/non-belief as an impact on your life, what is your view on:
- Morality (ie, what’s “Good/Right,” what’s “Evil/Wrong?”
-The meaning of our existence
-A Heaven and Hell
-The OTHER “group”

Our understanding of morality is one way we experience God.

The meaning of our existence, well - we are commanded to live well and to worship God. Is that _why_ we were put here? I don't know..

Heaven is communion with God, hell is to be cut off from Him.

Atheists experience god, even if they don't recognise Him, and can still lead good and blameless lives. What this means for the hereafter, I can't say.
DJEcc24 (246 D)
11 Aug 10 UTC
so you posted as a christian and i dont; agree with all of it. was it catholic theology too because you said you were almost a priest?
hopsyturvy (521 D)
11 Aug 10 UTC
Sorry - CofE = Church of England. It's the official church in England with the Queen as its head. Wikipedia says it describes itself as both Catholic and Reformed, if you can make sense of that. In effect it encompasses a range of practices, which can look like anything from close to Roman Catholicism in its ritual, to quite protestant - the beliefs are perhaps more protestant in nature though. As the 'established' church, it tends to be what people in the UK default to - many are baptised, married, and buried CofE, but rarely visit the church or think about their belief otherwise. Even many relatively pious CofE types tend to be willing to accept uncertainty, question the church to an extent and the bible even more so.

Wiki is really good on this actually. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_England and perhaps http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latitudinarian for the tradition that maybe best explains my position
hopsyturvy (521 D)
11 Aug 10 UTC
Christian generally encompasses a broader range of beliefs than, I think, many Americans realise. An American ex of mine refused to accept that catholics were also christians, for example.
DJEcc24 (246 D)
11 Aug 10 UTC
i think catholics are christians jsut a large difference in doctrine from what i am.
Catholicism is a denomination of Christianity, in that respect like every other one. Anyone telling you otherwise is being ridiculous.

Also, I missed the final question. As one might expect, I'm fine with non-believers, barely being one myself.
DJEcc24 (246 D)
11 Aug 10 UTC
thats one thing i dislike about what people say abotu Christians. that we all hate nonbelievers and all that. i respect what other people believe and all and i don;t hate them. but if i'm friends with someone i'm gonna share what i belive in hopes that they might believe it too. cause if i belive they would go to hell if i don't try to turn them towards God then what kind of friend would i be to just let them go to hell?
hopsyturvy (521 D)
11 Aug 10 UTC
The kind of friend I'd want to be friends with ;)
Christian (posting as a secular humanist)

1. Does God exist, has He ever existed, and can He ever exist?

No, at least there is no evidence that I can see to suppose so.

2. What is your reasoning (belief, logic, science, scripture, etc.) for your answer?

I only accept as fact those things that can be proven to be so with some form of physical evidence. Simply put if something cannot be shown to be true with some form of evidence there is no reason to suppose that it is.

3. Is God known and understood/if you believe in a deity, do we already know how He/It operates, ex. As the Bible says God is and operates, or is God/any deity unknown in its nature?

If any such being exists then it is almost certain that it is not the god of the Judeo-christian traditions.

4. If the answer to #3 is “Yes,” how “well” do we/can we know God/ if the answer is “No” and you believe there is a deity, what reason do you have for not believing or holding with the Biblical account?

One could not suppose to know any more about such a being than a wasp would understand about a blue whale. Such an entity would be so far beyond our knowledge that it would be entirely incomprehensible and probably completely disinterested in humanity.

5. If you believe God is good, why is God good; if you believe He is/would be bad, why is he bad?

I believe that there is no such being.

6. How much do you care about/follow/are influenced by the Bible/Torah/Koran?

I do not follow any of the three and don't place any paricular value on any of them. There are parts of their teachings that happen to coincide with my values, but I do not go to any ancient text to decide how I should act.

7. How much do you care about/follow/are influenced by scientific or philosophical writings?

Science is the best way to understand the universe and the only way to know anything for certain.

8. What three theological/philosophical writers do you most “hold with” and why?

Carl Sagan - presents a clear view of the Universe without the need for any supernatural explanations.

Christopher Hitchens - presents the case against religion as a social parasitic organization and brings up valid criticisms of it.

Hume - presents the basis for ruling out supernaturalism as a valid answer to anything.

9. How important is religion to *insert your nation here*?

Very important, but happily its influence upon everday life and society appears to be waning.

10. What do you think of Jesus?

A good man who was entirely misunderstood if he existed at all.

11. What do you think of Moses?
Good story, probably entirely mythical though.

12. What do you think of Muhammad?

Another entirely misundertood "prophet".

13. What do you think of Richard Dawkins?
His heart is in the right place but his style probably does little to promote his cause.

14. What do you think of Christopher Hitchens?
An eloquent writer who presents a good case.

15. What do you think of Friedrich Nietzsche?

Laid some of the ground work for modern (post christian) philosophical thought.

16. Do you yourself own a Bible/copy of Dawkins/Hitchens/Nietzsche/Hume/Sartre/Etc.?

Yes, I own many books.

17. Do you quote from the Bible/above authors, and if so, how often, and for what purpose?

Not often, perhaps in an argument. I love quoting the Bible to believers who either haven't read or don't understand it.

18. How important is the Sabbath/Religious Holidays to you/for atheists, what do you think of these?

Do what you want just don't expect the rest of us to take part in your silly rituals.

19. How important is Church/Temple/Mosque to you?
It isn't, I can understand the need for some people to identify themselves as part of a group like that but you can just as easily be a member of a non-religious group and probably get all of the same benefits.

20. With your belief/non-belief as an impact on your life, what is your view on:


- Morality (ie, what’s “Good/Right,” what’s “Evil/Wrong?”
Each person is completely qualified to judge for himself or herself what is right or wrong. The society in which you live is the main variable as to what you would think might be good or evil. For example in the USA its seen as good to help a stranger in need, but in India that might be considered contact with a person of a different caste (causing contamination) thus it might be considered evil.


-The meaning of our existence
There is none but what you give it. This is your only shot make of it what you will.

-A Heaven and Hell
There is none but what we make for ourselves.

-The OTHER “group” in this survey (so those who answered as a Believer, how do you see Atheists/Skeptics as people and their views, and Atheists, how do you view the Believers?)
Plenty of christians are fine people. I get irritated when people act as if their particular superstition has some basis on reality or modern life but as a rule they are okay. I think that children should be protected from indoctrination into any religion until they are old enough to make up their own minds, but if an adult chooses to be a christian than I have no problem with it.


37 replies
The Lord Duke (3898 D)
11 Aug 10 UTC
PLANET EARTH game
Are you really trying to tell me that Frozen-Antarctica & Brazil are not communicating in this game?!!!!
1 reply
Open
Kreator of Doom (252 D)
03 Aug 10 UTC
Fantasy Football Auction League
I have 5 email addresses (not including myself) and I need 2 more for an 8 team league.
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Bob Genghiskhan (1258 D)
11 Aug 10 UTC
A password protected live game
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=35597

Reply in this thread or PM me, and I'll PM you the password. This way, there's a better chance that those who join actually show up.
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jcbryan97 (134 D)
11 Aug 10 UTC
Two Games
I just finished two game and am looking to replace them.

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