Any self respecting Christian should say verboten. Prostitutes are in most cases forced into that lifestyle to make money. Most dont want to be a prostitute deep down inside. Its a sick practice and takes advantage of the poor.

Diplo, of course, brings up the truth behind most "exploitation" - it is a matter of perspective. If my choice is no work at all, or work hard for enough money to improve my own condition, then I improve my own condition, even if by western standards my pay is a pittance. The comparisons (x worker makes pennies a day) often neglect to point out that food and housing also cost fractions of western costs - so the complaints are fundamentally flawed. (Yes, I seem to contradicting my earlier point - I'm not - i was hoping Diplo's point would be made). One man's exploitation is another man's way out of the hole.

@The Prussian - How do you know that "in most cases" prostitutes are forced into the life style? That's a rather expansive statement to describe the oldest profession in the world. It is just possible that some of them enjoy it, and I don't think you want religion dictating policy...most of the world isn't Christian, so you wouldn't be happy with the result.

Legalize and unionize.

Really, assuming a safe and non-coerced workplace, what's the difference between prostitution and any other sort of work?

@"diplomat61: Just because they are greatful doesn't mean they're it's not exploitation"

However as Diplomat just pointed out just because it is exploitation doesn't mean it is worse than the alternative - from a historical standpoint i don't think these two examples are the same at all.

Factory workers imply industrialisation, and however poorly paid it is better than subsistance agriculture.

Western investment (and exploitation of working conditions) in poorer countries has a net effect of transfering (some) wealth to these poorer countries (allowing for wages alone)

That is money going from a western economy, the pockets of us 'bad' exploiters into the pockets of poor asian people who then spend it on food/services in their own economy. (ignoring the profit margins of the investors)

So from a historical stand-point i can more easily consider this a net good.

Prostitution on the other hand is something which historically has involved the sale of people as slaves for their bodies to be used in whatever sex practices were desired. Availability of sex any current cultural 'market' depends on cultural norms. These in many [arts of the world include a prohibition on sex outside of marriage.

I don't think a liberal's ideal world can exist while these culturally repressive views of sex are still prevalant.

If you want to talk about the world we'd like to see as opposed to the world we do see then that is a different question.

Still it is possible that some places do not suffer from the same Catholic bias (and it exists in Islamic culture as well) as Ireland does today. Germany may be setting an example held to overcome this cultural issue, but i'm not convinced.

Fuck unions.

"Really, assuming a safe and non-coerced workplace, what's the difference between prostitution and any other sort of work?"

- the difference for me is turning something which i think should be free (like clean water and air) into something which i have to pay for - as a cultural norm.

Next we can make marriage include a contractual obligation to only have sex with your partner at least once a week, and for the man to pay the woman 50% of his wages for this priviledge - i mean if the consenting adults enter the agreement knowingly it is fine, right?

I read a news article about a brit who called the cops because his wife was denying him his "matrimonial rights" to sex. It was pretty cute.

@ orathaic

When was the last time you had sex for free? Usually, the paper trail is just a lot more convoluted.

Furthermore, in many parts of the world (even in the US and other 1st world countries) water isn't free.

I had no idea there were more than 1 1st world countries.

@JECE: "Just because there are greatful doesn't mean they're it's not exploitation" I know what you are getting at and have a lot of sympathy for the point of view but the reality is that they had an opportunity to improve the lives of their families. They knew what they were coming to HK to do, what they would be paid for doing it and had a choice, to come or not.

If you employ a Polish plumber instead of someone from your own country, are you exploiting him? If you buy a cheap jumper instead of one hand made by a local craftsman are you exploiting the people in the factory?

I think you are exploiting the difference in their wages and cost of living but not the person (cheating on what you said you would pay is a different matter). In return you give them an opportunity to earn. That seems like a reasonable bargain to me.

@Amon Savag: which did you think was the "1"?

I'm guessing America?
First World - western nations
Second World - Communist nations
Third World - Mainly African nations.

@figle: if you wanted to know what i meant by "all of it" i kind of said it but maybe not clear. I was talking about consensual crimes. Basically decriminalize those! Check the link i posted

For a far left view of sex and marriage (related to the prostitution argument) there was (maybe still is) a far-left radical feminist professor at the University of Michigan who claimed that ALL sex in marriage is rape (of the woman, of course). So by here view, of course, all prostitution would be criminal rape.

@krellin, do you know that professors name? I know a bit of radical feminist theory and as far as I know the "ALL sex is rape!" thing was just an urban myth.

I've heard it used as a debate starter, as deliberate hyperbole

That kind of thing gives feminism a bad name. Anyone who offers it as a genuine idea should be ashamed.

Yeah. All the feminists I know are quite sex positive. Uncomfortably so at times.

@dilpomat- Somalia, of course.

I think first world is industrialized* AND democratic (north america, western europe, australia and new zeeland)
Second world is industrialized* but NO democratic freedom (ie communist nations)
Third world is Agricultural** (ie most of africa, india, south east asia, central asia, south america, the middle east)


*Industrialized also means: living in cities, small famalies, lower mortality rates.
**Agricultural also means: living in rural villages, large families, higher mortality rates.

These terms are falling out of use because of the massive improvements in many 2nd world countries democratic record, and the development of some 3rd world countries, which puts them on par with the USA in the 20/30s for family size and mortality.

Thusly developing and developed countries are now the more useful (and at least in favour) terms.

"Furthermore, in many parts of the world (even in the US and other 1st world countries) water isn't free."

I have a big arguement that water 'should' be free, which falls down when people with free water waste it and cost more to society (and impact more on the enviroment by usage) Thus am converted to the belief that water should be paid for (metered even) but that people should have a 5 litre per person per day allowance.

On principle all humans need @5 litres of water per day to survive, and i do believe society should manage it's water resources (not put them in private corporate hands to explit for profit) well enough that every person can get enough water each day. (just because society can make a profit for itself doesn't make metering water 'evil' or against my ideal of socialism, i think society can be just as smart with it's resources as compnaies are supposed to be...)

"When was the last time you had sex for free? Usually, the paper trail is just a lot more convoluted." - not so long ago. (well almost a year now, i should spend less time argueing here...)

I do admit i did at least spend time with this female, and for some time is money, but i don't think i had to buy her nice diamonds or shiney clothes... the fact that i can cook reduces the cost of wining and dining her...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharine_MacKinnon

ok, a little research, and i've found Catharine 'ALL sex in marriage is rape' MacKinnon - i have seen it claimed (on the internet) that she said this.

While the wiki article details her opposition to pornography, and the controvesy it raised with 'sex-positive' feminists. It doesn't mention anything about sex in marriage begin rape. Krellin, if you value your reputation* please do some research to support your claim (i don't want to be accused of trolling you, i admit i only read a wikipedia article, and it is possible she said more than is listed there, also she may not be the Michigan Professor you were taling about, but she is a Michigan Professor)

*Just making up or believing and spreading lies isn't good for getting other to believe you...

Amon-

Unions are awesome. Without them, workers have essentially no protection from management. There isn't a safe pension in America that's administered by a company, whereas union pensions are still paying off month after month.

@Amon: "Somalia, of course." interesting answer.

@Bob Genghiskhan: "Unions are awesome." They provide a counterweight to management but when too powerful they destroy value through restrictive working & manning practices and delay investment in more efficient machines. A balance between union & management is best.

I think I need to go "survey" some prostitutes and get their opinions... ;-)

i think when Amon said 'Fuck Unions' she meant it as a description of the Union a prostitute would join...

@orathaic

So, you did cook for her, presumably buying the food, and spend time with her? To me, this is just another form of payment. Now, in this scenario you aren't paying just for sex, you're also getting companionship. So, if someone is just interested in the sex, what's wrong with paying for just the sex? I doubt we'll find ourselves in a situation where everyone's first date is a trip to the whore house because there are a lot of other benefits a relationship brings besides sex.

There are also alot of other liabilities that a relationship brings. Trust me, after 21 years of marriage, I know about the liabilities.

@orathaic: there is nothing in Amon Savag's post to base that interpretation on.

@draugnar: a few years ago I was running a conference in Amsterdam. One evening I asked for a walking tour of the city but somehow this was translated into a walking tour of the red light district. We were led by a sociology student who had done work in the district for her thesis. It was absolutely fascinating learning about how the place worked, the realities of pimps/boyfriends etc.