Congratulations to 2018 World Diplomacy Champion, Andrew Goff, and to everyone else who participated in the Championship this weekend!

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A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
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Live gunboat!
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=205130
0 replies
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ubercacher16 (443 D)
23 Aug 17 UTC
Live World?
http://www.webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=205098
7 replies
Open
Ogion (3982 D)
16 Aug 17 UTC
(+6)
It is not OK to punch even Nazis
Look, the question of justifiable violence has been a profound and difficult problem in moral philosophy for ages.
I posit that violence is not justified as a political tool ever
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Ogion (3982 D)
21 Aug 17 UTC
Well, no actually, it wouldn't, but then facts don't matter
CroakandDagger (675 D)
21 Aug 17 UTC
What wouldn't what?
Shenguin (268 D)
21 Aug 17 UTC
(+2)
I feel the need to challenge some of the assumptions Ogion makes about Gandhi and Mandela on the first page. Gandhi was a proponent of non-violence as a political tool, but he was far from consistently a pacifist and wrote that he would advise violence over cowardice if there were a straight choice between the two. Mandela supported the use of violence and the arming of the ANC in the early 1960s. In his release in his Cape Town speech in 1991 after release from prison, he made it clear that he preferred peace but the the cost of continued South African Apartheid would be continued armed struggle.

I'm not passing judgement on either Gandhi or Mandela for this; I do think it is an error to swallow unquestioningly the sanctified pop-culture images of Gandhi and Mandela.
SuperSteve (894 D)
21 Aug 17 UTC
"Violence not justified as a political tool" is silly.

Not only is it a political tool it is THE political tool. ANYONE (that is not the Sovereign) that is ANYWHERE that doesn't do as told suffers violence.

I challenge anyone to come up with a counter example.
orathaic (1009 D (B))
21 Aug 17 UTC
How about the Anarchists in Christiana (In Copenhagen), who are not the sovereign of Denmark, and yet ignore Danish law?
JamesYanik (548 D)
21 Aug 17 UTC
https://puu.sh/xg21A/f04111bca5.png
https://puu.sh/xbB8I/c82481f2e9.png

it's spreading...
Arch-Duke (100 D)
23 Aug 17 UTC
The anarchists in Christiana are engaging in civil disobedience. Just because every act of civil disobedience isn't immediately met with violence does not mean that violence is the foundation of state power. Indeed, it is by temporarily resisting or deterring such violence that squats, protests, and other forms of direct action gain their power. But go to Copenhagen and try to extend Christiana into another suberb, see what happens.

All politics is violence. The liberal fantasy of non-violent politics moderated by reasonable debate is just that: a fantasy. It exists only so far as you can ignore structural violence and privilege.

Take revolutionary America: forgetting for a second the necessity of violently overthrowing British rule, the classical humanist values of the revolution really prized this idea of an enlightened republic; that they could establish a fair and representative forum of governance for a new era of peace and rationality. Except that the founding fathers created a system where only white male landowners could vote, a system that upheld and enforced slavery, a system that performed genocide, mandated manifest desitiny, and ruthlessly reorganised Central America for profit. All of this is apologised for with incrementalist arguments, yet incrementalism is forced bottom up, not top down, and is irrelevant to the question of whether state power and capitalism embody little more than self-perpetuating violence, which they naturally do.
Ogion (3982 D)
23 Aug 17 UTC
(+1)
@shenguin

Thanks for pointing that out. Those are very important points.

The point is was driving at (a little clumsily) is maybe mostly driven by Buddha and Jesus than those two. In any event, let's take a look at what violence accomplishes: You've injured or killed some one, deepened opposition amongst your victims, turned neutrals against you, and also converted yourself to a hatefilled person which isn't conducive to achieving either peace or victory. I am not seeing how that is a case for much of an upside. One doesn't beat hate with hate, only love does that. Ultimately getting rid of racism and wiping it from the face of the earth (that's not a call to violence, bo, so no silencing me for it again, ok?) means changing people's minds and culture. Does hitting people do that? No. Shaming might though. Even after winning WWII, there needed to be a big persuasion effort in Germany. That was never done in the Confederacy and look where we are.

I am increasingly of the opinion that there are times where we aren't about persuasion but simply have to stop actors the way you'd put out a fire to protect others. (Certainly, as some here have have found out, threatening my family is going to get you a response)
Certainly, there is an argument that these terrorist groups have to be stopped before they can send people out to commit terrorist acts and recruiting events need to be disrupted. That is a much bigger effort than just beating people up at rallies and given the stochastic terrorism approach there isn't any direct command and control to disrupt. At most, you can deny them a platform and try to shit down recruitment.

Ultimately, punching people at rallies isn't a good plan and not justified.

Here is an interesting article that distinguishes between black bloc and antifa. Turns out the antifa have been going after these neonazis for a long time in the Us to keep their numbers small.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2017/08/daryle-jenkins-has-stepped-up-to-explain-the-shadowy-groups-violent-tactics-to-the-world.html

That's good work, frankly, doxxing and shaming. That seems a much more effective approach than punching them.

No one who opposes the principles of liberal democracy gets the benefits of free speech its principles provide. Out for a penny out for a pound. So, proportionate nonviolent approaches are the way to go, and denying a platform is effective and necessary to avoid violence later.
Ogion (3982 D)
23 Aug 17 UTC
The conservative fantasy that politics is all about bashing people's heads is just that a fantasy. The OVERWHELMING amount of social control is exerted through culture and social consensus and pressure. We are primates and that is how primates work. Violence to enforce social control is virtually never trotted out. Imagine if you had to send in the troops to force people to follow parking restrictions or return library books. Ha! That's just not how society works.

Very few people follow social norms out of fear of being shot. I suppose one might say that when people suggest violence is the foundation, maybe you're dealing with a sociopath who only operates out of fear and doesn't recognize that that isn't how normal people operate. It is kind of like those religious people who think that atheists are horrible because they think that only fear of divine retribution keeps people in line. Keep in mind that when you're talking to those guys that it is a distinct possibility that the only reason they don't bloodily rip you limb from limb is because of their religion. Please don't talk them out of their religion!!!

There wasn't any necessity of over throwing British rule. There were taxes people didn't like, not tyranny. I've lived in dictatorships and trust me, if it'd been tyranny, anyone writing tracts about revolution would have been summarily executed. The fact that the founding fathers were walking around for years and could meet publicly pretty much should that this wasn't a rebellion against tyranny. It was a complaint about taxes.
orathaic (1009 D (B))
23 Aug 17 UTC
Non-violence works: https://www.ted.com/talks/jamila_raqib_the_secret_to_effective_nonviolent_resistance/up-next?utm_campaign=social&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=t.co&utm_content=talk&utm_term=global-social%20issues#t-525241

But it is tragically under studied, under advertised, and misunderstood.

We need better non-violent solutions, techniques, and experieces. But the state has no reason to support them. Because it has a monopoly on violence, and thus prefers to hold onto power by using the threat of violence to give people confidence in the state.

When actually we, like atheists, don't need to state forcing us to comply with social norms. As Ogion described above.
orathaic (1009 D (B))
23 Aug 17 UTC
Prison abolition starts with ending all prison terms for non-violent crimes (and replacing them with some kind of community service) which would dramatically reduce the use of state violence in our societies. But prison abolutionists sometimes go further, towards addressing the causes of violent crime and creating the healing needed to prevent them repeating.

Wherher that means treating violent crime like a disease (finding the vectors, targetting them, finding at risk groups and vaccinating them?...) and if you want to reduce state violence against people, you should also look at other forms of violence in your community. Be it domestic abuse, gang violence, state oppression, or whatever, extremists like eco-warriors, or neo-nazis, or white supremacists, or whoever are not the biggest contributors to violence today.
Ogion (3982 D)
23 Aug 17 UTC
one side issue is this notion that "the state" is some unitary intelligence. In fact, it's made up (in a liberal democracy) of a shifting cast of leaders with a very wide range of civil servants. The state, per se, doesn't have interests. Politicians, political parties, and their supporters do, but in a pluralistic society the state doesn't have that kind of role.

One can in fact see several examples of states taking an interest in nonviolent solutions, but only where there are people, society or cultures that have an interest in nonviolent approaches. in fact, here in California, there's a certain amount of interest in such approaches in our courts and in policing, just to name two examples. Of course, it's a smarter cheaper way to go, but since most of the U.S. doesn't understand doing things in a new way to save money and effort, they sneer at us as "hippy dippy" or what have you. All the while, the smart people get richer, the dumb ones stay stuck, and the blue states have to pay a shit ton of money to bail them out.

It's just yet another example of why California and the other forward thinking blue states ought to remove themselves from the deadweight of the United State and go our own way. Then we can dedicate our foreign aid in a more intelligent way to deserving recipients where it will do more good.
Ogion (3982 D)
23 Aug 17 UTC
(+1)
Ora, I didn't know there was a movement of people advocating for bathing in prisons. it's the first i've ever heard of prison ablutionists.

:D
TrPrado (367 D Mod)
23 Aug 17 UTC
(+1)
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)


344 replies
Maltir (100 D)
22 Aug 17 UTC
Juggernaut
I know the dictionary definition, but what is this in game? How to you create one/deal with one that has been created?
28 replies
Open
michael_b (192 D)
20 Aug 17 UTC
Planned Parenthood's "Monthly Abortion Quotas"
I welcome all fellow Pro-Lifers and all all Pro-Choicers alike to discuss their reactions/thoughts about this interview with a Ex-Exec from PP in a CIVILISED AND RESPECTFUL MANNER. Is this the right direction? If not, what is to be done? I know its Fox News, but its what she says that matters.

Video: https://youtu.be/KUy7zugBMa4
19 replies
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dargorygel (355 D Mod (G))
21 Aug 17 UTC
(+2)
The Eclipse is over... and the Apocaclypse didn't happen!
Just saying...
5 replies
Open
Would I get banned if I supported a teammate in an Anonymous/no-chat game?
just wondering I'm in a tactical spot to do so but it seems super suspect and unfair almost
2 replies
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goldfinger0303 (1969 D Mod)
14 Aug 17 UTC
WebDip World Cup Results
The last game is in the books and we have a winner!
73 replies
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chluke (6135 D (G))
22 Aug 17 UTC
2015 Gunboat tournament results?
Who ran the 2015 Gunboat tournament? Would love to see the final scoring table here:

http://tournaments.webdiplomacy.net/gunboat-tournament
10 replies
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brainbomb (474 D)
20 Aug 17 UTC
(+2)
Steaks Diplomacy Game
Would anyone be interested in a -whoever wins grills- steaks diplomacy game? The notion is that we'd all have a potluck some amount of roasted veggies on a grill, and some ribeyes. We go to a ftf party, then get naked.
6 replies
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Maltir (100 D)
22 Aug 17 UTC
Length of Time
What is the average amount of rounds/years of one game of Diplomacy?
13 replies
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Maltir (100 D)
22 Aug 17 UTC
Bounce vs DMZ
What are the advantages and disadvantages of a bounce? Same question with a DMZ.
15 replies
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Oztra (30 D X)
20 Aug 17 UTC
What are the best threads over the past few years that people have had
e.g. funny ones
submit my own
http://webdiplomacy.net/forum.php?threadID=1417318&page-thread=1#threadPager
did that one myself heheh
19 replies
Open
Need 1 more for a live game!
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=205021
0 replies
Open
captainmeme (849 D Mod)
21 Aug 17 UTC
Age of Empires IV Announced!
https://youtu.be/RYwZ6GZXWhA

No gameplay footage, but I'm still hyped already :)
3 replies
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jengamaster (1813 D)
21 Aug 17 UTC
How abusive are you comfortable getting in your diplomacy?
I know flies with honey and vinegar and all that. But how fall are you willing to take it to accomplish your diplomatic aims?
12 replies
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captainmeme (849 D Mod)
10 Jul 17 UTC
(+7)
Petition to Introduce Chaos
Attempt #2. Let's get Chaos available to play on this site!
88 replies
Open
abgemacht (840 D (G))
19 Aug 17 UTC
Fortnite
A new Zombie killing/fort building FPS. A little heavy on the P2W aspect, but worth checking out, imho. I have a couple extra copies; PM me if you want one.
3 replies
Open
wpfieps (450 D)
20 Aug 17 UTC
(+3)
Stakes Diplomacy Game
Would anyone be interested in a tent stakes diplomacy game? The notion is that we'd all chicken-wire together some tarps into a tent sitting in the backyard of a trusted party, and fasten it to the ground with tent stakes. The pay-out is that if you solo, everybody else has to sleep out in it at the end of the game, with Krellin visiting the tent to wake y'all up every morning.
3 replies
Open
captainmeme (849 D Mod)
28 Jul 17 UTC
(+2)
Dramatic scenes as unprecedented movement occurs in webDip's longest running game
20 replies
Open
Scrub (241 D)
20 Aug 17 UTC
Just a thought
I just had a thought on a game where you can't support any of your moves (including support holds). I was thinking this would encourage alliances more and just make for an interesting game

For anyone who's interested here's the info gameID=204910
Password: manofmyword
9 replies
Open
DeeEnAye (100 D)
19 Aug 17 UTC
Has there been an actual WW1 simulation/approximation of Diplomacy?
Meaning orders & outcomes that best represent the events of WW1, which I assume would result in some sort of draw in the end, beginning either 1901 or 1914? I'm sure it's been done, but I'm a curious newbie.

11 replies
Open
Condescension (10 D X)
20 Aug 17 UTC
Stakes Diplomacy Game
Would anyone be interested in a cash stakes diplomacy game? The notion is that we'd all wire some amount of money to a trusted party, who would pay it out according to DSS at the end of the game.
2 replies
Open
Condescension (10 D X)
20 Aug 17 UTC
Stakes Diplomacy Game
Would anyone be interested in a cash stakes diplomacy game? The notion is that we'd all wire some amount of money to a trusted party, who would pay it out according to DSS at the end of the game.
9 replies
Open
JamesYanik (548 D)
20 Aug 17 UTC
Premier League 2017/18
Predictions and thoughts so far
5 replies
Open
Gezirah (107 D)
20 Aug 17 UTC
How do I find my game ID
This interface is a little confusing and outdated. Can anyone tell me how to even locate my private game's ID?
2 replies
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Enriador (100 D)
18 Aug 17 UTC
(+1)
What is this forum about?
Hello guys,

So, I have been browsing the forum a little, but it seems to be more like a Reddit forum where one can throw up anything they want to rather than
21 replies
Open
Ogion (3982 D)
17 Aug 17 UTC
(+2)
It is not OK to punch ISIS and Al qaeda members
If ISIS and Al Qaeda wanted to hold a march calling for death to America and a fundamentalist caliphate to take over the US then any who attack them or inhibit their right to free speech are evil violent people

41 replies
Open
DealMerchant (911 D)
19 Aug 17 UTC
What do you all think about Faustian stories?
Diplomacy is a great playground for turning on friends for personal advantage, and I'm pretty sure everybody might compromise their held virtues for a little harmless gain in most places of their lives. Do you all think Faustian narratives are on point the more we all trod into the great 21st century, or is the devil obsolete and unversed in the digital age?
11 replies
Open
MrcsAurelius (3051 D (B))
17 Jul 17 UTC
Better be feared than loved, if you cannot be both
Setting up what hopefully will be a nice classic game. Would like to keep it GR 100ish, to ensure quality and reliability.
71 replies
Open
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