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CommanderByron (869 D (S))
20 May 17 UTC
Gauging Interest: Econ-Dip
See Inside
CommanderByron (869 D (S))
20 May 17 UTC
Premise- War is a mechanism of tactics, diplomacy and cold hard cash. This version of the classic map intends to add the mechanism of economy to the game of diplomacy in a simple and easy to follow way.

Every country will have a vault, this vault must stay above 0* at all times (* = monetary unit) or that country will go into Civil Disorder. (not really just means the player will have to enter all holds until someone loans them the finances or they save enough to launch an offensive)

Each country starts with 400* except Russia and England who start with 500*

Players earn wealth by:
Conquering Supply Centers (whenever a center changes hands) - 200*
Occupying Supply Centers (maintaining control of a center through to the end of year) - 100*
Loans (players may loan wealth how they see fit, but can not guarantee a repayment)

Players spend wealth by:
Support Hold: 25*
Support Move:50*
Move: 100*
Convoy: 250*
Build: 200*

NOTES:
-Conquest and Occupation wealth are not compounded you earn one or the other
-Each unit involved in a convoy is counted separately. So a 3 fleet convoy of an army will cost 850* (if no supports are used)
-Civil Disorder goes into effect after build phase if you are in debt
-Loans must be expressed to the GM and will only be allotted at the following phase change.

Civil Disorder:
If a player goes into CD either through game mechanics or by their own irresponsibility all countries with a colored border with that country will be docked 100*
CommanderByron (869 D (S))
20 May 17 UTC
GM: Commander Byron

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CommanderByron (869 D (S))
20 May 17 UTC
phases will be 36 Hours
Full Press
non-anon
HDV

superkeiko (239 D)
20 May 17 UTC
Interesting? Do you get * even during spring phrase(by conquering SC)? What about bounce? It would seems to disincentives moving and creation of blocking unit(an unit that just sit around and hold)? Maybe this version would actually be good for compact countries like Turkey, Germany and Austria that home SC is next to each other.. If I was a corner country, I would just sit around, getting my war chest up, and then strike hard and fast, or loan money to finance foreign wars.
CommanderByron (869 D (S))
20 May 17 UTC
all * is rewarded after fall phase but before builds. So lets say you Germany, you own Berlin Munich and Kiel and manage to take Denmark F 1901, you'd receive 500* that year. Since you started with 400* and (im assuming you moved all 3 units in spring and only moved one in fall and built a unit) then youd start 1902 with 300*.

The thought is every move must count, and you may have to wait to take a center because you don't have enough * to advance. This won't be easy and i expect a lot of interesting play. You may see a player loan * to an adversary to help them expand and take the pressure off them. You may see a player loan to an ally to help them advance. You may even see a player play turtle and just build wealth so they can buy their way forward. The possibilities are really great and id be excited to see what all of you do
CommanderByron (869 D (S))
20 May 17 UTC
To explain why England and Russia start with 100 more * : Russia has an extra unit and has to fight two fronts. Just like original game russia is given a slight advantage to help their handicap. England is handicapped by the addition of Convoys costing so much and so the extra 100* is to help with that initial cost.
Unstupid (696 D)
20 May 17 UTC
I would do it with significantly longer phases - it seems like a great idea. Wouldn't a gunboat version be even more interesting - maybe with published results of loans at the end of each season?
CommanderByron (869 D (S))
20 May 17 UTC
@Unstupid- 48hr phases?? I don't want to go too far with the phases just as i don't want the game to be much slower than it already will be. Would be interested in doing a GB version after the FP if there's enough interest.
steephie22 (182 D (S))
20 May 17 UTC
I'm interested, but I'm not sure I agree with a complete lack of in-game mechanism for repayment, meaning loans are truly just gifts. I get why, but still not sure if it would work at all.
What if you negotiate an interest as well, and a player is forced to pay all outstanding interest if they can, but any deals about repayment are not binding? Also, any debts toward defeated nations are cleared. And actually, they should also have the option to add the interest to their debt if the one who gave the money is ok with it. Or alternatively, it's up to the player whether they let their debt accumulate, but there is a debt ceiling per country they're borrowing money from, and they can never go beyond that ceiling.

I'm suggesting these things because they could show more accurately how too much debt can ruin a country and why lending out money can be good under certain circumstances.

Interest would add much more to the mechanics and clearly indicate the price of borrowing money.
steephie22 (182 D (S))
20 May 17 UTC
Interest being semiannually is probably best.
steephie22 (182 D (S))
20 May 17 UTC
Of course, you could still negotiate for a 0% interest loan.
Yoyoyozo (187 D)
20 May 17 UTC
England needs more than 500, or convoys are way too expensive.
steephie22 (182 D (S))
20 May 17 UTC
Keep in mind that convoys against England are quite expensive too.
Yoyoyozo (187 D)
20 May 17 UTC
So? Yay extra safety but that doesn't mean anything when you can be denied any builds indefinitely.
superkeiko (239 D)
20 May 17 UTC
What about dislodgement, retreats, disband, and home SC rebuilds? Next, would be multiple route convoy, allied convoy, and allied support? Next, is when is * reconciled? So, is the loan phase before any moves? Or can I stab by lying about loaning, and don't loan to create a CD?
steephie22 (182 D (S))
20 May 17 UTC
You can't be. Fleets can conquer too. Norway or Belgium may be conquered in year 1. Then you could continue expanding or start saving, as you wish.
superkeiko (239 D)
20 May 17 UTC
I am assuming you can't have more units than SC, right? Or, a country can just slowing saturate the broad and home areas with units, while slowing building wealth.
steephie22 (182 D (S))
20 May 17 UTC
You can't. It's still diplomacy apart from mentioned differences.
CommanderByron (869 D (S))
20 May 17 UTC
To answer questions/issues:
-England convoy issue: England can still take centers using fleets and those should help fund convoys. Further the other nations have less * to start and so will have trouble getting 1901 builds past a solitary build. There is no way to perfectly balance (ever classic isn't balanced to start with) and a win will be determined by how a player handles their disadvantages with their advantages.

Loans are processed at the end of builds phase. Meaning if you message me and say "loan 50* to England" in Spring 1901 then England will not receive that until end of 1901 builds. You can retract your loan at any point until then.

No interest will be applied mainly to make the adjudication math easy on me and to keep the mechanism simple. Further in international politics there really isn't a 100% guarantee your loan will be payed back. It's a trust and leverage game. I loan 50^ because your CD will help my enemy and hurt me. Hopefully you'll repay the favor next year.

Retreats cost nothing as they are forced and neither do disbands. Home SC rebuilds? I assume you mean disbanding a unit to rebuild it, in this case the disband is free and the subsequent build will cost 200*

steephie22 (182 D (S))
20 May 17 UTC
I could do the ajudication math if you prefer. It's really really easy.

I still think it would be much better with interest, so I think I'm going to pass on this game if you insist on only having gifts and no loans.
steephie22 (182 D (S))
20 May 17 UTC
And no, there's no guarantee, but I think that due to the complete lack of consequences and lack of any kind of economic crises, for instance when someone borrows money and then is unable to pay interest or is defeated, I think it's not really an economic simulation anymore. That's my concern. Gifting money will be a tiny part of the game even though it could be massive, with people really able to get other people indebted to them if they play it right.
superkeiko (239 D)
20 May 17 UTC
You will need to play test it, but my tactical sense is that moving is too expensive relative to defending. In general, 1:3 ratio of defender to attacker is required to overcome resistance in real world. In the Classic no *, this is somewhat balanced since you win in a tie for defenders, and that sometimes the best defense is attacking to cut support. Here, an attacking requires a lot more than just holding.
steephie22 (182 D (S))
20 May 17 UTC
Indeed. I think it's not necessarily a problem, but an aggressive campaign is going to cost a lot indeed. That's why I think loans should be with interest, because if I want to start an aggressive campaign, no one is just gonna hand me all that money. Countries would only hand me money if they get interest in return. Then, I need to think whether the gains from an aggressive campaign are worth the debts that I likely incur, how fast the investment pays back etc.

Without interest, there won't be many money transfers.
Claesar (4030 D Mod)
20 May 17 UTC
I'd be interested in a gunboat version.
Bladerunners (1361 D)
21 May 17 UTC
Sounds interesting. i think you should make it a diplomacy game though instead of a gunboat game
Oztra (30 D X)
22 May 17 UTC
1. Oztra
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yeah sure i'll play, don't really care about the haters
CommanderByron (869 D (S))
22 May 17 UTC
Thanks Oztra. Bump.
CommanderByron (869 D (S))
22 May 17 UTC
Parameters:
Unranked FP
Non-anon
CommanderByron (869 D (S))
22 May 17 UTC
48 hr phases.
Kench (1249 D)
22 May 17 UTC
Sounds like an interesting experiment, I'm in.

1. Oztra
2. Kench
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This sounds like a lot of fun. I'm in if you'll have me.

1. Oztra
2. Kench
3. BohemianRapCity
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31 replies
Namejeff (10 D X)
22 May 17 UTC
GTA 7
Does anyone have GTA 12 that I can borrow for my comrade
1 reply
Open
bobarctor1977 (274 D)
18 May 17 UTC
Would anyone be interested in joining a game with some friends of mine and I?
I have 3 friends that I would like to introduce to the game, but can't seem to talk anyone else into playing with us for a full Ancient Med game. Just a casual, low-bet game, probably 2 day turns.
18 replies
Open
Hippopankake (80 D)
20 May 17 UTC
New game
I'm thinking about making a game where you have to have a war goal and a justification for going to war similar to paradox games thoughts ?
7 replies
Open
leon1122 (175 D)
18 May 17 UTC
(+1)
German Man Imprisoned for 10 years for Holocaust Denial
See below
381 replies
Open
brainbomb (474 D)
21 May 17 UTC
Lawmaker threatened with Lynching after calling for Trumps impeachment.
http://www.ketv.com/article/racial-slurs-hurled-at-lawmaker-after-calling-for-trumps-impeachment/9901862
4 replies
Open
Hauta (1618 D (S))
21 May 17 UTC
(+1)
Hehe, Trump just bowed to Saudi king and curtsied too
Just another example of Trump hypocrisy. He slammed Obama for merely bowing. The curtsy was bigly over the top.
32 replies
Open
brainbomb (474 D)
20 May 17 UTC
Juggernaut is actually a horrible alliance
Despite the fearmongering ive seen in Press games about Juggernauts over the past 5 years ive been here...I cant help but note its low rate of success and how its paranoia often benefits France or England most. Please share games where Juggernauts fail miserably. But also include ones which work out in a 2wd (if there even is such a situtation)
10 replies
Open
peterwiggin (15247 D Mod (S))
24 Mar 17 UTC
Spring 2017 SoW Study Game
This thread is for commentary and discussion on the spring 2017 School of War Study Game: gameID=194603

233 replies
Open
Jamiet99uk (35 D)
20 May 17 UTC
(+1)
Mafia
It's been a while since the last game of Mafia. When does the next one start?
19 replies
Open
brainbomb (474 D)
18 May 17 UTC
(+1)
Is it Treason to sympathize with the Confederacy?
Shouldnt it be treason to sympathize with the Confederacy? We fought a war and defeated them. Hundreds of thousands died more than any war fought by America. For people who still wish the south had won- chant the south shall rise again or fly its flags isnt this treason?
86 replies
Open
Crazy Anglican (250 D)
20 May 17 UTC
Dresden Files rpg
Anybody here played it or better yet GM'ed it?
0 replies
Open
Fluminator (496 D)
18 May 17 UTC
Should otherkin be forced to give up their human rights?
Are there any otherkin on this site? I'm genuinely curious to understand this culture more. If you identify as something non-human, do you think you have a right to get the privileges that all humans deserve? Or do you believe you're in a separate category and thus have different standards and base rules to start off with?
20 replies
Open
Hippopankake (80 D)
20 May 17 UTC
New game
I'm thinking about making a game where you have to have a war goal and a justification for going to war similar to paradox games thoughts ?
0 replies
Open
Fat backstab (25 D X)
15 May 17 UTC
(+1)
WebDiplomacy
I feel this would be a much better game if you destroyed all of the thots accounts
52 replies
Open
Jamiet99uk (35 D)
15 May 17 UTC
(+2)
Trump hands highly classified information to the Russians
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/trump-revealed-highly-classified-information-to-russian-foreign-minister-and-ambassador/2017/05/15/530c172a-3960-11e7-9e48-c4f199710b69_story.html?tid=ss_fb&utm_term=.ef65b5b012be

What a liability this man is.
43 replies
Open
Hauta (1618 D (S))
16 May 17 UTC
Hillary's secret agenda
Someone made a comment that they voted for Trump because they were worried about Hillary's secret agenda. What was she going to do that was so bad?
44 replies
Open
CAPT Brad (40 D X)
17 May 17 UTC
Why Should Hillary Have Been Elected President
Explain concrete reasons why.
81 replies
Open
TrPrado (441 D Mod)
18 May 17 UTC
Betty Shelby Found Not Guilty of Manslaughter
I'm just left wondering how the DA bungled what should have been an open-shut conviction.
6 replies
Open
Yoyoyozo (187 D)
13 May 17 UTC
Does .999... equal to 1?
I'm drunk and I havent seen this thread in a while. What do you guys think?
45 replies
Open
peterlund (1310 D (G))
18 May 17 UTC
Robert Mueller my hero!
At last you are getting something right over there. Put that traitor into prison where he belongs!
12 replies
Open
Durga (2658 D)
16 May 17 UTC
WDC
Is in Oxford this year. Anyone going?
11 replies
Open
WyattS14 (44 D (B))
16 May 17 UTC
(+1)
History of The Entire World, I Guess
If you haven't watched this video, I urge you to do so right now. (And let's start a discussion, why not? I'd like to hear what Zmaj and James have to say.
https://youtu.be/xuCn8ux2gbs
8 replies
Open
stranger (603 D)
17 May 17 UTC
convoy rules
If my opponent moves his army from Tuscany to Piedmont and I convoy my Piedmont army to Tuscany via the gulf of lyons at the same time, will they swap places?
8 replies
Open
rojimy1123 (612 D)
18 May 17 UTC
Chris Cornell, 1964-2017
My inner teenager is crying. RIP.
8 replies
Open
Jacob63831 (160 D)
16 May 17 UTC
What is the meaning of life?
Is it Memes?
Is it Bill Cosby?
18 replies
Open
orathaic (1009 D (B))
15 May 17 UTC
Interesting read
I'd like to hear what the right wing thinkers (and not trolls) think of this article, as well as the liberals here.

Mostly a criticism of market liberalism: https://jacobinmag.com/2017/05/handmaids-tale-margaret-atwood-trump-abortion-theocracy
15 replies
Open
wasdok (0 D X)
18 May 17 UTC
SSD AUTOMATIC CHEMICAL SOLUTION FOR
SSD AUTOMATIC CHEMICAL SOLUTION FOR CLEANING DEFACED
ssdsolutionlab1@gmail.com

7 replies
Open
orathaic (1009 D (B))
17 May 17 UTC
Tax dodging and capital flight
Ok, this youtube video discusses it. In brief, company extracts mineral wealth, sells for a low price to parent company based in a tax haven, declares no/very little profit. ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ocm42ytXto )
13 replies
Open
Hauta (1618 D (S))
12 May 17 UTC
Probably not in the Bible but...
Before Jesus took over John's ministry what did people think of the fact that a man in his upper 20s wasn't married and had no children? Wouldn't that have been exceedingly rare at the time?
24 replies
Open
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