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A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
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Volmort (90 D)
22 May 17 UTC
Coast passing
Hi I have a question, can I move from mid-atlantic see to North Africa and next turn attack Tunis?

Or its prevented by coastal issues?
5 replies
Open
CommanderByron (743 D (S))
20 May 17 UTC
Gauging Interest: Econ-Dip
See Inside
31 replies
Open
Namejeff (327 D)
22 May 17 UTC
GTA 7
Does anyone have GTA 12 that I can borrow for my comrade
1 reply
Open
bobarctor1977 (92 D)
18 May 17 UTC
Would anyone be interested in joining a game with some friends of mine and I?
I have 3 friends that I would like to introduce to the game, but can't seem to talk anyone else into playing with us for a full Ancient Med game. Just a casual, low-bet game, probably 2 day turns.
18 replies
Open
Hippopankake (32 D)
20 May 17 UTC
New game
I'm thinking about making a game where you have to have a war goal and a justification for going to war similar to paradox games thoughts ?
7 replies
Open
leon1122 (183 D)
18 May 17 UTC
(+1)
German Man Imprisoned for 10 years for Holocaust Denial
See below
381 replies
Open
brainbomb (258 D)
21 May 17 UTC
Lawmaker threatened with Lynching after calling for Trumps impeachment.
http://www.ketv.com/article/racial-slurs-hurled-at-lawmaker-after-calling-for-trumps-impeachment/9901862
4 replies
Open
Hauta (1587 D (S))
21 May 17 UTC
(+1)
Hehe, Trump just bowed to Saudi king and curtsied too
Just another example of Trump hypocrisy. He slammed Obama for merely bowing. The curtsy was bigly over the top.
32 replies
Open
brainbomb (258 D)
20 May 17 UTC
Juggernaut is actually a horrible alliance
Despite the fearmongering ive seen in Press games about Juggernauts over the past 5 years ive been here...I cant help but note its low rate of success and how its paranoia often benefits France or England most. Please share games where Juggernauts fail miserably. But also include ones which work out in a 2wd (if there even is such a situtation)
10 replies
Open
peterwiggin (14549 D Mod (S))
24 Mar 17 UTC
Spring 2017 SoW Study Game
This thread is for commentary and discussion on the spring 2017 School of War Study Game: gameID=194603

233 replies
Open
Jamiet99uk (106 D (B))
20 May 17 UTC
(+1)
Mafia
It's been a while since the last game of Mafia. When does the next one start?
19 replies
Open
brainbomb (258 D)
18 May 17 UTC
(+1)
Is it Treason to sympathize with the Confederacy?
Shouldnt it be treason to sympathize with the Confederacy? We fought a war and defeated them. Hundreds of thousands died more than any war fought by America. For people who still wish the south had won- chant the south shall rise again or fly its flags isnt this treason?
86 replies
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Crazy Anglican (96 D)
20 May 17 UTC
Dresden Files rpg
Anybody here played it or better yet GM'ed it?
0 replies
Open
Fluminator (319 D)
18 May 17 UTC
Should otherkin be forced to give up their human rights?
Are there any otherkin on this site? I'm genuinely curious to understand this culture more. If you identify as something non-human, do you think you have a right to get the privileges that all humans deserve? Or do you believe you're in a separate category and thus have different standards and base rules to start off with?
20 replies
Open
Hippopankake (32 D)
20 May 17 UTC
New game
I'm thinking about making a game where you have to have a war goal and a justification for going to war similar to paradox games thoughts ?
0 replies
Open
Fat backstab (100 D)
15 May 17 UTC
(+1)
WebDiplomacy
I feel this would be a much better game if you destroyed all of the thots accounts
52 replies
Open
Jamiet99uk (106 D (B))
15 May 17 UTC
(+2)
Trump hands highly classified information to the Russians
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/trump-revealed-highly-classified-information-to-russian-foreign-minister-and-ambassador/2017/05/15/530c172a-3960-11e7-9e48-c4f199710b69_story.html?tid=ss_fb&utm_term=.ef65b5b012be

What a liability this man is.
43 replies
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Hauta (1587 D (S))
16 May 17 UTC
Hillary's secret agenda
Someone made a comment that they voted for Trump because they were worried about Hillary's secret agenda. What was she going to do that was so bad?
44 replies
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CAPT Brad (1620 D (B))
17 May 17 UTC
Why Should Hillary Have Been Elected President
Explain concrete reasons why.
81 replies
Open
TrPrado (372 D)
18 May 17 UTC
Betty Shelby Found Not Guilty of Manslaughter
I'm just left wondering how the DA bungled what should have been an open-shut conviction.
6 replies
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Yoyoyozo (5249 D Mod)
13 May 17 UTC
Does .999... equal to 1?
I'm drunk and I havent seen this thread in a while. What do you guys think?
45 replies
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peterlund (1084 D (G))
18 May 17 UTC
Robert Mueller my hero!
At last you are getting something right over there. Put that traitor into prison where he belongs!
12 replies
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DemonOverlord (452 D)
16 May 17 UTC
WDC
Is in Oxford this year. Anyone going?
11 replies
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WyattS14 (80 D)
16 May 17 UTC
(+1)
History of The Entire World, I Guess
If you haven't watched this video, I urge you to do so right now. (And let's start a discussion, why not? I'd like to hear what Zmaj and James have to say.
https://youtu.be/xuCn8ux2gbs
8 replies
Open
stranger (660 D)
17 May 17 UTC
convoy rules
If my opponent moves his army from Tuscany to Piedmont and I convoy my Piedmont army to Tuscany via the gulf of lyons at the same time, will they swap places?
8 replies
Open
rojimy1123 (532 D)
18 May 17 UTC
Chris Cornell, 1964-2017
My inner teenager is crying. RIP.
8 replies
Open
Jacob63831 (163 D)
16 May 17 UTC
What is the meaning of life?
Is it Memes?
Is it Bill Cosby?
18 replies
Open
orathaic (1009 D (B))
15 May 17 UTC
Interesting read
I'd like to hear what the right wing thinkers (and not trolls) think of this article, as well as the liberals here.

Mostly a criticism of market liberalism: https://jacobinmag.com/2017/05/handmaids-tale-margaret-atwood-trump-abortion-theocracy
15 replies
Open
wasdok (0 D X)
18 May 17 UTC
SSD AUTOMATIC CHEMICAL SOLUTION FOR
SSD AUTOMATIC CHEMICAL SOLUTION FOR CLEANING DEFACED
ssdsolutionlab1@gmail.com

7 replies
Open
orathaic (1009 D (B))
17 May 17 UTC
Tax dodging and capital flight
Ok, this youtube video discusses it. In brief, company extracts mineral wealth, sells for a low price to parent company based in a tax haven, declares no/very little profit. ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ocm42ytXto )
orathaic (1009 D (B))
17 May 17 UTC
My question, now i'm not against transparency and international tax reporting system. But in principle, if the country is sovereign, it can investigate any suspected 'dodgy' dealings, and threaten to freeze assets of the given multinational - in which case all production would become frozen. Or indeed demand payment on 'assumed' profits, if they refuse to divulge the information.

A sovereign nation could infact take over the operation entirely, claiming that the corporate assets have been repossessed on the assumption of owed taxes.

Similar to how Ireland could ask for Apple to pay tax profits - but will not. (see: https://medium.com/@orathaic/apples-enda-and-the-eu-d371f60f622 )

Why do we not see more countries doing this? I understand why we don't see it in Ireland's case. But what about the rest of the world?
superkeiko (239 D)
17 May 17 UTC
This phenomenon is called regulatory arbitrage, and it is a feature of national sovereignty not a bug. In fact, most developed countries has relatively high tax compliance with a relatively high tax by historical standard.(imagine the tax evasion in the middle ages).
It is a bit like a race to the bottom, if a country does have lower tax, or favorable treatment, it would incentivizes companies to past income through.
Now, here is the rub, 1 percent of something is always better than 50 percent of nothing, so the wisdom goes.
The idea is similar to prisoner dilemma, it is rational for countries to defect and stuff it to the foreigners. That is not even accounting for what some people like to called the corrupting influence of money on politics and power and lobbying.
In your case, it is not so much that Ireland taxpayer got stiff, but in fact taxpayer in foreign countries that got stiff. Since foreign tax payable was reduce by shifting profit to Ireland, and Apple paid little to no tax in Ireland. Though without this deal, Ireland probably won't get any part of those tax anyways.
So, while countries technically can use national sovereignty to do whatever they please(within the laws/customs of each country in turn), the stable solution to this system might very well be the current situation.
Notice that the proposed international tax reporting is done in the OECD, and generally done to exclude those developing world that has the most tax non-compliance.
In fact, one of best tax haven for non-Americans is USA since IRS generally does not make the effort to assist foreign tax collection agency(with some exceptions of course).
orathaic (1009 D (B))
17 May 17 UTC
@"Now, here is the rub, 1 percent of something is always better than 50 percent of nothing, so the wisdom goes." - the very same arguement could be used for the corporations.

If they aren't able to extract resources at all, without paying tax, then they're actually better off just paying the tax.

Of course i was thinking the reverse, that extracting minerals may damage a country (by removing some natural resources) and ruin it's future. This means that the options for the nation aren't 1% vs 50% but a cost of 20% plus 1% tax vs a cost of 20% + 50% tax (say).

So it is entirely possible that the arguement is wrong to begin with. Depending on how you count costs, or which costs you think should count.

The irish case doesn't really interest me that much. Though i did post on medium about it, i suspect my views are pretty clear there.

The fact is, countries are not sovereign, they are bound by international treaties. Especially those which protect investors rights. So if a country was to attempt to repatriate the profits, but the 'internationally agree' standards for tax reporting had been respected, then a violation of international law would require the states protecting the corporation's right to step in.

Either with trade embargos or similar economic sanctions.

And in that way, Imperialism continues in economic exploitation.
Hauta (1587 D (S))
17 May 17 UTC
Why not just use the concept of "imputed income" the way the IRS does on "zero interest" bonds? If comparable domestic resource-extraction companies earn 20% profit on revenue, then impute that much income for tax purposes, regardless of the intra-company transaction.
orathaic (1009 D (B))
17 May 17 UTC
@Hauta, that does go into my question of 'why don't sovereign nations just take their cut' and the answer, which apparently i didn't think of when originally posting is, investor protections.
diplomat61 (52 D)
17 May 17 UTC
Essentially the country (aka sovereign nation) is making a choice between direct tax income and encouraging economic activity, which can bring other benefits (jobs, tax on the income of workers, local purchasing by the company and its employees, etc.).

Many countries offer incentives to attract multinational companies. This can be lower tax rates generally, but why give a tax break to a company that is already there? Temporary reliefs, such as lower tax for X years, are more common. Less often you also see things like reduced personal tax rates for nominated staff.

Of course, governments don't like it when they consider that another country is stealing business from them. In the 2000's many large companies restructured their European businesses to move ownership of some activities into Switzerland to take advantage of tax deals available there. As these were existing activities the companies had to be careful that the authorities in the country where the activities were previously owned (and taxed) accepted the change.

From the companies' point of view there is a dilemma. Typically company directors have an obligation to maximise the value of the business for the shareholders, so is it right for them to not minimise tax by pursuing options like these? Remember that through your pension fund you may well have an interest in companies that do this.
Hauta (1587 D (S))
17 May 17 UTC
Many resource rich countries are also quite corrupt, so letting someone extract resources without tax implications is one great way for politicians to deliver value. (Another would be to sell the right to extract at a below-market rate). Now all they need to do is find/create an Estonian trust that can conceal their ownership in the company making the profit (or if they are more discreet, to receive a payoff from a "3rd party").
orathaic (1009 D (B))
17 May 17 UTC
Many countries without a lot of economic development have two roads, one from the presidential palace to the airport and one from the mining area to the seaport.

Thus allowing great extraction of mineral wealth in exchange for enough welath for the rulers to run things. No need for schools, or hospitals, because those things don't contribute signifigantly to national wealth.

There is a case for the existance of natural resources to exploit being a major impediment towards development (like the discovery of oil). Meanwhile, when a nation derives a majority of its income from taxing the people then you tend to see small things like schools to help the people earn more money (which can then be taxed), and hospitals to help keep people alive/healthy longer so they can earn more (higher return on investment in education).

And thus also some infrastructure to transport people from home to school/hospital...

I would suspect that 'off the books' payments are a large part of why taxation in less developed nations is allowed. But you can't blame everything on corruption. Especially when we have the ability to track publicly and securely all financial transactions (it is called block-chain, and is the technology underlying bitcoin, but you can use it for any transaction, you could use it to trace land registry, for example).
MajorMitchell (995 D)
17 May 17 UTC
How about the way the Greek nation treats it's shipping industry for tax purposes ? A nation with a debt of about 180% of it's GDP, mostly owed to European Union countries. Yet it's shipping industry is virtually untaxed. No tax on shipping company profits, (a complex, innefective "tonnage tax" with so many loopholes, so it raise very little revenue) no tax on share holders dividends or capital gains ( unlike taxes on shareholders in other, non shipping companies ) and the owners ( mostly dynastic families ).. are also virtually exempt from paying taxes, eg an inheritance tax exemption. And it looks like Greece's economy is about to go into recession again.
diplomat61 (52 D)
17 May 17 UTC
As I said above, gov'ts make a choice between taxing a business directly or gaining indirectly by encouraging the activity. Shipping is a business that really could operate from anywhere so it would not take much for them to relocate; a classic case of 1% of something is better than 50% of nothing.
orathaic (1009 D (B))
17 May 17 UTC
@MM, it looks like Greece's tax base is rather narrow and limited, somehow i think this is a case of internal Greek politics, the way you describe it, the influence of greek dynasties.

That is entirely up to the Greek people to address. If i were an investor, of looking at Greek bonds on the international bond market, i would definitely consider how broad the tax base is in Greece before investing (which would help them pay off that massive debt... though it will largely be written off at this stage).
MajorMitchell (995 D)
18 May 17 UTC
Diplomat..they're not even getting 1%...try between 0% and 0.5%, on shipping company profits, and 0% on shareholders dividends and capital gains, and 0% on inheritance taxes whilst other Greek businesses are required to pay a lot higher tax rates on profits, and there are similar differences with shareholders and inheritance taxes.
So really, they are effectively getting 0% .or an infitesimely small %
So your 1% of something being better than 50% of nothing tends to fall on its ass.
Fortunately those hardworking, taxpaying Socialists in Europe are there to constantly bail these "free market, zero taxing stooges to Capitalism" out of their extravagant debts.
MajorMitchell (995 D)
18 May 17 UTC
Increase the profits with taxpayer funded business welfare and privatise them, Nationalise losses, but exempt higher income earners and businesses from the costs of that, throw all that on the workers....but get Yannick and Capt Brad to spin a nice confected window dressing bit of propaganda to hide those inconvenient truths. Right wing economic theory 101. LoL.


13 replies
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