@Zmaj, I work and pay taxes, my agency gets a total of $0 from our government... But yes, I benefit from the social state, because I live in it, and it is very nice. I contribute to it financially and through work every day, in return I have a high standard of living... I am assuming that is what you are getting at?

Plug, the post office is a government service in therory now anyways. Still it benefits from a monopoly established by the government for first class mail.

@Pluglife, whoever finds the social state very nice has not done any real business in life.

@Zmaj, What is your definition of "Real Business"?

@CAPT Brad, I usually love your soliloquies, although have never agreed with you. What does that have to do with the state of the American health care system? Or anything I have said?

Question for Mods, can I change my username to "James Slaver Yanik" ?

Haha, but yeah I actually believe German healthcare will be fine, the cultural work ethic is going to keep them going. their problems stem from being dragged down by the EU. southern Europe shows the alternative effects of too much socialism, too much spending.

that's why i say just let the states decide. a wide sweeping federalized program won't work well here, autonomy and specialization are key here.

in any case, i love the claim that i'm too young and naive... as they argue for Socialism.
although i guess in hindsight, it was the older intellectuals who got a bunch of young ideologues fired up and ready to kill tens of millions, so perhaps they're not entirely hypocrites


and as for the FDA, health and safety IS a priority for our nation, but there's a two sides problems: we need good drugs on the market, and we need safe drugs on the market.

that's why i've always proposed a market with zero-FDA regulation, and a market that has to abide by all the rules. One is consumer protected, one is "buyer-beware"

we'd have to rework our legal system to make sure any lawsuits in the buyer-beware market cannot be foiled by bankruptcy, and threaten massive fines for drugs with unwarned side-effects, or that turn out to be lethal.

but if that were possible, i think it'd be a better solution than keeping drugs out of the hands of people who need them, simply to extend trial periods even after testing has finished.

and as for other nations having better safety guidelines then us: it's true, but since the drugs we create already meet a large base of those guidelines, their generic copies of our drugs can make it through quite easily.

@Pluglife

i think you're experience in Canada differs from the experience of Americans. Many Americans do live in cities or metropolitan areas, public health regulation, public transit, government services are key, so that only a single product can be produced.

it's a web of dependance that does more efficiently produce a better product, but by living in that city you must pay for the services from the government.


however, you also see a binary with the more rural population. they either A. benefit next to nothing from government regulation, and do not see why they should have to give up their labor and their freedom for other's, when they've never received an advantage in their life.

and B. where you have a working class caused by industries FROM cities, so their taxes contribute to the system that keeps them socially immobile.


and as to Ogion's claim that we have less social mobility: that is because the government forcibly redistributes money to a much higher extent that here. i don't see that as good

and as to his claim that we do not have equality of opportunity: yeah that's called being born into different parents, different neighborhoods. the ONLY problem is how your parents got to be so successful, whether it was through ancestors who were slaveholders? or maybe if they had used government regulation to destroy competition.

or maybe they were hard working and wanted a good life for their children. (but we're not supposed to consider that one in SJW land)

@JamesYanick

I understand that people living in rural arias have a different experiences, however the point you have failed to confront remains. In Canada, unless we are millionaires, we pay less for our health care than you. Rural Americans would pay less and get more. I'm not talking police or electrical grids or even the military. I'm saying the system saves those people money and hardship.

As for the inequality of opportunity, I believe that all people of European heritage, hard working or not, have had a huge head start and continue to... If you are the descendent of a slave owner or not, you benefited from being white, and will continue to benefit so long as systems remain in place that protect white dominance & actively keep people of colour out of the circles of power. The myth of meritocracy will only continue that violence. This is an issue Canadians have not even come close to figuring out. Indigenous peoples here, have had a boot on their necks for generations and are constantly asked why they can never seem to "get it together".

@Pluglife - it's a bit more complicated than that though. How much is Canada going into defecit? Could your system work in a country with 10x the population? To what extent are you only able to do this from oil revenues? Etc etc.

Canada has advantages as well as challenges. Canada is by no means the only country pulling this off. We have Oil revenues, you have the largest economy on Earth. Canada is sometimes in deficit and sometimes not (We spend much less on blowing things up and have higher taxes). At a point The United States will need to check its priorities simply to survive let alone to provide basic needs to its people, but why not start making those decisions now?

@Goldfinger I'm not saying these things to act holier than thou or to pick a fight. I legitimately believe America is capable of these things. I grew up idealizing America, and was horrified the first time I actually crossed the boarder and went to Chicago. The poverty and segregation I felt, even as a child. I have traveled much further afoot now and know that Chicago is not the best of what America has to offer, but it is also not the worst. There are real issues with inequality that will never be dealt with unless tough choices are made. It is not easy, but to use an old trope, "You guys put a man on the effing Moon!"

I love America and the American people, I don't believe this is too great a challenge to attempt.

@pluglife

ok... i see your point. we pay too much: which is why we need to make drugs and medical equipment cheaper. i don't see how massive taxation and turning it over to the government is going to lower overall costs though, and if we do put price caps and socialize, then pharmaceutical companies are going to have a hard time finding new investors. government will have to likely have to start subsidizing, raising the consumers cost even more.

given that many international pharmaceutical companies make a LARGE proportion of their money over here, this is not going to be a good era for new drug creation, and if need strains of diseases start popping up, there's going to be a crisis that i can't imagine us having the resources to fight.

God damned bloody Republicans.

You lot are an embarrassment to Conservatives on the other side of the pond. Lefties in Britain looking at you get their crazy beliefs that Conservatives are against the NHS, that we'd somehow want the ridiculous excuse for a health care system you endure over there. What the hell has happened to you lot? Where is the sense of duty to your fellow citizens that is a fundamental pillar of conservatism the world over? Of course health care should be available to all. Of course it shouldn't matter if you have pre-existing conditions. What matters is that they are your countrymen and they are bloody suffering. Have a bit of national responsibility for God's sake.

What are conservatives in your country even for? Doesn't the concept of providing people the opportunity to better themselves have any appeal any more? Because it is damned hard to pull yourself up to new heights when all your bloody effort is spent on fighting impending disaster. You do not created fertile soil for growing nee conservatives by salting the bloody earth. Maximise people's opportunities to make themselves a success and they will not only become successful but do so thinking you're worth joining.

Obamacare was pretty shit, but when you live in a drafty shack and a hard winter is coming the solution to your problem is not to demolish the bloody shack. You build something better, or at the very least try and fix the shack. What the hell are you thinking?

Anyway, rant over. Quite how a bunch of red flag waving republicans think they're conservatives in the first place I have no idea. No surprise that you're doing it wrong.

Octavious, I just want you to know that no matter what you do, you’re still gonna die.

Octavius

American and european/british conservatism are different.

American conservatives and Republicans are NOT always the same group.

so let's go:

1. a sense of duty to our fellow citizens? yes. we donate to charity more than liberals. Oh... you mean pushing for MORE government control to take our money and put it into healthcare programs? Well Britain already has some of the highest taxes in the world, and their NHS discriminates against the elderly, has bad waiting times for even major surgeries, and tells people who think they have a minor flu or something, to not go to the hospital.

it sound marvelous i know, but for American conservatism, we watch out for our communities. We donate to local charities and we have food drives and we work for our own. We don't serve SOCIETY. we serve the community. I don't want pay for some person who i don't even know thousands of miles away. At that point, why not just donate more to kids in Africa? Why don't they get the same level of healthcare? are you just a nationalistic racist? why do you like your own nation over others? of course we promote values that avoid this.

Of course you guys are some of the few left that don't have profit caps on pharmaceutical companies. Profits in the UK are considerably dwarfed by the USA though, and that's the only reason new innovative drugs get produced. oh and the USA national debt is a disgrace, because we don't fund it. Your massive tax rates and you STILL run a deficit? pathetic. stay the fuck on your side of the pond.


2. "Of course health care should be available to all"

it is, it just costs money. Hospitals wouldn't turn people away for most treatments, rather they'll bill you up the wazoo. of course your response is: "why do they have to go into debt then?"

which confirms all suspicions that you don't care about the health outcomes of the patient, rather you care about the overall economic equality (your socialism is showing)


3. "Of course it shouldn't matter if you have pre-existing conditions."

not in Britain, but for INSURANCE, yes obviously does matter.

either you are fine with the idea of pooled risk by consumers for healthcare, or you want pre-existing with single payer. Pre-Existing conditions and Insurance, CANNOT mix, in a free market. (freedom, it's this cool thing that happened to all those countries after your Empire fell. you guys should check it out sometime.)

4. "What matters is that they are your countrymen and they are bloody suffering. Have a bit of national responsibility for God's sake."

nationalism is a refuge for cowards. I care about people i know and who i see everyday. i go to a local deal center because the poor and homeless in MY city are suffering, so i help, i give back, i go into food drives, i work hard.

if you say "national pride" you're asking me to pay for someone inside my country who has never done anything to affect my life. why not force people to pay for healthcare in Africa? why discriminate simply because of nationality?


5. "What are conservatives in your country even for? Doesn't the concept of providing people the opportunity to better themselves have any appeal any more?"

yes, and we do. more than liberals. there's a book called "Who Really Cares" that's a good read about the charity divide. it used to be when you had a problem you went to your family for help, then your community for help, then your religious institution, THEN you went to local government.

but nowadays we go straight to federal government. so what do conservatives stand for? hard work, self responsibility, and charity.


6. "Maximise people's opportunities to make themselves a success and they will not only become successful but do so thinking you're worth joining."

that last part of the sentence might be a typo, but the first part is just denying reality. socialized systems depend on the culture. in Germany, the culture could make it work. the USA? it creates dependancy states. it doesn't MAKE people more successful, it traps them in poverty. your system is better rigged than ours to prevent that, but at the same time, your poverty rate isn't too pretty. (remember poverty is measured as below half the national median. our median is already higher than yours. do the math, i'll wait.)


7. your metaphor about the shack makes no sense, whatsoever. it is in no way a good analogy, you frame it as obamacare is a shack, socialized healthcare is a house, and free market is barren land. when you frame something like that, you're being disingenuous. socialized healthcare is a shitty shack for everyone. free market allows people to buy great cabins, for those who work hard enough. conservatives will share their cabins with those who couldn't work, but come next summer you go back out there and build one for yourself.

liberals force the conservatives to tear down half the cabin, give the other guy half of his shack, never make the other guy work for a second, and incentivize laziness and what is essentially theft.


8. "Anyway, rant over. Quite how a bunch of red flag waving republicans think they're conservatives in the first place I have no idea. No surprise that you're doing it wrong."

I agree, Republicans are shit. but BRITISH conservatives, are almost practically Democrats. stop pretending that you got shit worked out (although at least Labor is collapsing. that's so fun to see)

Pluglife, I appreciate the vote of confidence, but the problem is you don't know Americans. The poverty and inequality is the result of conscious collective decisions made to worsen the situation over many years. It isn't a bug of the American economy, it is a feature


For the record Canada has a lower deficit and much lower debt relative to GDP than the US perhaps in part because they don't waste tons of money on a highly inefficient and ineffective health system the way the US does. They also don't waste tons of money on a bloated military

@Ogion

Debt as a % of GDP shows you how effectively you can pay off that debt. however, there are two other factors that must be taken into context.

their current tax rate is higher than ours, so to [ay off that debt, they have less upwards mobility in taxes. thus their debt problem is worsen.

GDP consists of government expenditures, net exports, consumption and investment. Only net exports, consumption and investment CAN BE TAXED. Canada has MUCH more of its GDP in Government expenditures than us. thus their debt problem is worsened


now onto "conscious collective decisions" can you elaborate on this? which "conscious collective decisions" are forcing us into poverty? do you mean the lower class spending massive amounts of money and going into debt with record breaking NEGATIVE savings rates? because that is NOT a conservative principle.

also @Ogion i agree we spend too much on healthcare. let's cut regulations, do minor prices caps, (that still will allow health profits to attract investors, and by healthy i do NOT mean european price caps) and then our costs will go down. what? the left wants MORE regulation on drugs? will golly gee that isn't good

And of course the unaffordable health care act proves how much The whole "sanctity of life" argument by the anti-choice movement is. They're perfectly happy to enslave someone else and force tens of thousands of dollars to "save" a supposed "life" but ask them to chip in a few hundred bucks a year to save another persons life and all we hear are how taxes are theft and "socialism!" The distinction is so sharp it makes it 100% clear that the anti-choice movement doesn't give two shuts about babies but will defend the theory that women are property not people to the very death

Is bullshit that is. Missing word

Octavious -"American conservatives stand for three things: racism, sexism, and the subordination of humans to corporations. You can pretty much book every conservative position to a toxic brew of those three things

1. Ogion how is it NOT a life? i'm still waiting on an answer for that one. the argument is really over personhood and rights, but to claim it's not a life... don't be ridiculous.

2. Mods this is an outright attack on conservatism with lies and slander. you wouldn't take this shit if it were liberals.

@Yanik I just read your long reply to Octavious. I'm so impressed that I'm asking you if you'd let me translate it into Croatian and send it to the editors of liberal.hr, a small site for Croatians who share your ideals, to publish it there. I can sign you as the author or make it anonymous, whatever you prefer.

@Octavious, would you let me translate and publish your post too? The whole thing would make more sense then.

take it all, free site

@Zmaj, there appear to be several parties in Croatia that have "liberal" in the name. Which one is like-"minded" with @Yanik?

Well Ogion, for many in the "anti abortion" brigade, every sperm is sacred, every embryo is sacrosanct, but actual humans, if they are in the "wrong" socio-economic demographic are utterly worthless except for the purposes of exploitation.