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A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
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yugoslavian (100 D)
20 Apr 14 UTC
(+1)
Replacement player unable to join
This issue relates to the following game:
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=139971
We have had Russia being banned for multi-accounting apparently, and we were told by GameMaster to try to find another player, which was promptly done. However, the replacement player allegedly cannot find the "join" button for the game and therefore cannot join. Could we please get some guidance as to what we should do in this case?
4 replies
Open
kasimax (243 D)
18 Apr 14 UTC
(+3)
is it just me or is there a reliability rating now?
heck yeah!
70 replies
Open
semck83 (229 D(B))
19 Apr 14 UTC
What is your opinion of this article?
http://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/sunday-commentary/20140418-honey-i-want-to-move-to-mars.ece

Is he right? Is this a functional marriage? Is there anything blameworthy on either part?
25 replies
Open
bo_sox48 (5202 DMod(G))
17 Apr 14 UTC
Is it weird...
...that I skipped a class to play piano? Don't people go and get themselves arrested when they skip class, then there's me, rocking out to Let It Go at 8:30 in the morning...
15 replies
Open
MadMarx (36299 D(G))
22 Feb 14 UTC
(+3)
Lake Lowell Marathon
Sunday, April 13, 2014, Nampa Idaho
83 replies
Open
The Czech (41806 D(S))
20 Apr 14 UTC
gameID=140156
NOT COMMENTING! But, could you please post a message before you cancel? I am curious as to who and what.
8 replies
Open
Tolstoy (1962 D)
17 Apr 14 UTC
Mike Ruppert, Godfather of 9/11 Trutherism dead of suicide
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/04/15/911-truther-mike-ruppert-kills-himself-after-finishing-his-radio-show/
30 replies
Open
SYnapse (0 DX)
15 Apr 14 UTC
Ukranian anti-terror operation thread
Well it looks like this is under way in Kramatorsk now.
126 replies
Open
ssorenn (0 DX)
19 Apr 14 UTC
Web based diplomacy or face to face???
I got to play f2f for the first time in 25+ years. It was quite enjoyable to have open banter with other players and fully articulate what your thoughts are, but after returning to the game so many years later and now playing on the web, with drop down menus and computer making the moves for you. I think I like the web better. I would however like to play f2f every once in awhile.

What's the community's thought?
4 replies
Open
Jefe (100 D(S))
19 Apr 14 UTC
New Stats
I have a few questions . . .
1 reply
Open
jwalters93 (288 D)
04 Apr 14 UTC
(+1)
Guys, there's too many serious threads here. We need some fun. Let's write a story.
OK, here are the rules.

One by one, we each add on to the story. You can only add one sentence at a time, and each post must be separated by at least one other post. Your sentence must be grammatically correct and within the realm of possibility. If we do well with this one, we might move on to something more outlandish. I'll post a final edit of each paragraph, time permitting, when we get enough. Have fun with it!
85 replies
Open
taos (281 D)
15 Apr 14 UTC
(+4)
this is not a cheating accusation 2
In fact it is a negligence accusation
119 replies
Open
taos (281 D)
19 Apr 14 UTC
9 hours left ,join this game.
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=140072
4 replies
Open
NigeeBaby (100 D(G))
18 Apr 14 UTC
The Great FIFA 14 sell-off ....
....... anybody need any players or coins for FIFA 14 on the Xbox 360?
1 reply
Open
bo_sox48 (5202 DMod(G))
26 Jan 14 UTC
PPSC Series
I'd like to start a PPSC Series. Any interest? More specific details to come once we have enough participants.
53 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
17 Apr 14 UTC
Just Get the Hell Out...Not Again...
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/04/17/jews-ordered-to-register-in-east-ukraine/7816951/ The LAST TIME a militant power told Jews they had to "register"...well, how did that turn out? Just get the hell out, guys...the hell with Russia or Ukraine's "ethnic Russians," the Jews don't have to put up with this AGAIN--not with America and Israel. Come here or go there, we don't have to get singled out for persecution AGAIN. (And how do you justify all this, Putin33? Hm?)
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Yellowjacket (835 D(B))
17 Apr 14 UTC
@Tolstoy so, you are saying that USA Today is just straight up lying? Or that they haven't checked their facts? What are you saying? This seems, as you say, like a very easy story to prove false, which is why I'm inclined to believe it is true.
Tolstoy (1962 D)
17 Apr 14 UTC
(+5)
Let's look at our source document here, the USA Today link, and do some deconstruction. It says its information comes:

"...according to Ukrainian and Israeli media."

Fact #1: USA Today hasn't done any original reporting here, they're just reprinting what is being claimed elsewhere. Given that, we probably can't say USA Today is lying - they're just reporting on what other reporters are reporting.

So what is the action this story is reporting on?

"Jews emerging from a synagogue say they were handed leaflets"

Handed leaflets by who? The city police? Fascist militiamen? Santa Claus? Who is passing these leaflets out? The obvious assumption would be "someone from the provisional government", but this is nowhere stated in the article. No writer would write an awkward sentence like this making the recipients the passive objects if they could instead refer to the senders with an active voice. Adding to the mystery is the statement of an eyewitness, passed along apparently third (or fourth?) hand through social media: "They told me that masked men were waiting for Jewish people after the Passover eve prayer, handed them the flier and told them to obey its instructions,". So it's unknown masked mystery men passing these leaflets out. Who wears a mask but someone who is trying to hide their identity?

Fact #2: No one knows who is passing out these leaflets.

The leaflets had the name of an official of the new government in town printed on them. But when asked about them,

"Pushilin acknowledged that fliers were distributed under his organization's name in Donetsk but denied any connection to them, Ynet reported in Hebrew."

Now why would someone go through the trouble of writing a letter like this and putting his name on it if he was just going to deny it? Especially if it was supposed to be official? That would be severely damaging to the credibility of a young government that needs to build its legitimacy, if true. You might say that he denied it once the story went global; that could possibly be true. But if there were an actual plan to register all Jews, there would be other evidence: where are the registration forms? Were they even printed up? They would've had to be, if they expected Jews to actually register upon receiving these leaflets. Who was supposed to receive them? The clerks at the front counter at city hall had to've known about this; if they weren't taking the registrations, they at least had to've been told who was; any reporter worth his salt would've called them to see what they had to say. I'm certain that was done. So where are their statements? There are only two possible responses: "yes, we were prepared to register Jews", or "no, I have no idea what you're talking about". But apparently, no one bothered to ask because it's not reported on. OR, the reporter (or editor) didn't get the answer he wanted so he left it out of the story.

FACT #3: Ukrainian and Israeli reporters are either incompetent or deliberately failed to include evidence - or its lack - for this alleged registration program.

Given the tone of the article and the reaction to it, I'm going to go with the latter - but I confess that this is an opinion.

We even have doubts within the Jewish community:

"Olga Reznikova, 32, a Jewish resident of Donetsk, told Ynet she never experienced anti-Semitism in the city until she saw this leaflet. 'We don't know if these notifications were distributed by pro-Russian activists or someone else, but it's serious that it exists,'"

and:

"'Who is behind this is an open question,' Rabbi Pinkhas Vishedski said in the statement"

FACT #4: Even the victims in Donetsk are unconvinced the government is behind this.

But this is only reported on well below the fold, beyond where the vast majority of readers have given up - after assuming they got the gist of the story already in the first 8 paragraphs or so.

So we have a news story about unknown masked people handing out leaflets demanding that Jews register themselves and their property or face punishment. I have no doubts that this actually happened. The obvious assumption - the assumption which probably 80-90% of the people reading this story, and probably 98% of people who just read the headline - is that the new pro-Russian government is behind it, and men with guns will actually take the Jews away if they don't comply. This is an assumption the article avoids correcting, even though it apparently can find no supporting evidence for it.

So if the government isn't behind this, who is? The problem is it's not hard to print up some leaflets, buy some masks, and pass them out at a synagogue. The barrier to entry here is less than $100. It could be anyone. It could be kids pulling a prank. It could be neo-Nazis (or whatever the Ukrainian equivalent is), trying to intimidate the Jewish community. It could be someone in the Jewish community themselves, trying to scare Jews into supporting a particular faction. It could be mapleleaf. But my money would be on someone trying to make the pro-Russian faction in the East Ukraine look bad, catch the attention of everyone who remembers the Holocaust, and create support from the world's Jewish community for a struggle they may not feel they have a stake in. Someone who knew they could get this story international attention. I will not name suspects, but I'm sure we Can Instantly Assume it is a very powerful organization with a lot of pull all around the world.

In sum, I would say that the USA Today isn't lying and the sources USA Today is relying on probably did check their facts but left that out of their reporting when it didn't fit the narrative they are pushing.
Tolstoy (1962 D)
17 Apr 14 UTC
(+1)
This is the lead story on the half-hourly newscast on the biggest talk radio station in America right now. The newsreader's 20-second soundbite just says 'Jews ordered to register with the new pro-Russian government'. No mention of any of these ambiguities or doubts I've enumerated. This is a first-rate propaganda operation. I hope the NSA will pass on my compliments.
Yellowjacket (835 D(B))
17 Apr 14 UTC
That is... really well put, actually. OK, you convinced me.
bo_sox48 (5202 DMod(G))
18 Apr 14 UTC
@krellin ... when I talked about the odds of escalation, I'm talking about Donetsk escalating into a mini Nazi Germany, not Russia deciding Donetsk serves some use to them and pissing off the "finger-wagging" President we've got here. Whatever, bad word choice on my end. Nothing to do with my education, but you'll never buy that and will try to use that against me as long as we're both on this site, so again, whatever.

@Obi ... why does Putin have to be a "friend to the Jews?" Seriously, I have never understood why the Republicans in this country try so hard to push pro-Jewish policy when the large majority of Jews identify as Democrat, and still most Jews identify as Democrat when Obama and Co. are trying to rip Israel away from them in favor of an unstable religious, often-radical base that would be much, much less developed and much, much less friendly to the United States. That's not to say I don't support a Palestinian state - I do - but really, sometimes I feel like Democratic policy is intentionally anti-Israel and yet a large majority of people that identify as Jews in this country identify as Democrat anyway. It occurs to me that that's because Jewish principle is significantly more liberal (like Christian principle) than the Republican party, and the Democrats support more things that Judaism supports, like social welfare programs and less militancy. Yet, despite all of this, Republicans are still the pro-Jewish, pro-Israel party, not Democrats, for practical reasons. So I ask again, certainly knowing a thing or two about Judaism and how much its teachings contradict his policy, why should Putin have to be a "friend of the Jews?"
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
18 Apr 14 UTC
Alright, Tolstoy...to the Interwebs we go...

"Handed leaflets by who? The city police? Fascist militiamen? Santa Claus? Who is passing these leaflets out? The obvious assumption would be "someone from the provisional government", but this is nowhere stated in the article."

http://nypost.com/2014/04/17/jews-in-ukraine-forced-to-register-with-authorities/

"Masked pro-Russian militants have ordered Jews in an eastern Ukraine city to “register” with authorities, a shocking reminder of the darkest days of the World War II Nazi regime."

So masked pro-Russian militants would be the answer there...and the one I've seen on other sites, so I'm going to say that's the answer? I don't think they called a press conference with name tags and neat placards--somehow that doesn't seem to be the masked militant way.

"Fact #2: No one knows who is passing out these leaflets."

I would again note that it's rather hard to identify masked militants.

If you mean "who" in a broader sense, ie, what group of people, the reports are again pro-Russian militants, and I'd note that in a situation like Ukraine where you have a number of different factions in a fast-acting situation, not only is the precise "who" not always initially easy to pin down but, indeed, that "who" can be rather fluid.

"Pro-Russian militants" are doing different things in different parts of that country right now. It's a fluid situation. What's more, even if it was known by the recipients who the militants were working for or on behalf of--and given the fact we've had suspicions Putin has been fanning the flames there, I see no reason why there shouldn't be suspicion that pro-Russian forces in a pro-Russian section of the country might be working for the pro-Russian government with the instructions to do so without officially coming out and saying they're affiliated with them...as generally you don't want your secret thugs to come out and give a press conference that they're working for you--and even if that group DIDN'T say they were going to do this...

We just saw how well Russia itself kept its word about not annexing Crimea.

Who do you trust more--a pro-Russian provisional government that's just been set up in the region under the shakiest and most tumultuous of circumstances, or a top to bottom list of reputable news sites carrying the story? It's a fair point that they could all be wrong. I'm just asking which you'd trust more--a nascent government that's trying to establish itself and would lose massive amounts of credibility if it was tied to the leaflets, or different cross-referencing journalistic sites?

I know asking to choose between a government or a news outlet as the shadier and less trustworthy is a Sophie's Choice indeed...I mean, we have a strong tradition of trusting NEITHER anymore in America. But if you HAD TO CHOOSE...

Are you prepared to choose pro-Russian forces over journalists?

"Now why would someone go through the trouble of writing a letter like this and putting his name on it if he was just going to deny it?"

Perhaps because, as much as our not trusting the government or media is a tradition here, lying to the media as a member of the government when caught in a potentially-compromising lie is an even longer tradition?

Put your name on it, have masked, anonymous thugs distribute it, and then say "Oh, those are just some masked, anonymous thugs, *I* don't have anything to do with it."

That's really out of the realm of possibility for you? That's not even at all remotely possible, that someone would give an order to people that he could then later disassociate himself from and therefore get the terrorizing effect he wanted on the Jewish community while still retaining the ability to distance himself from the event and deny that he was a part of it in the first place?

"You might say that he denied it once the story went global; that could possibly be true. But if there were an actual plan to register all Jews, there would be other evidence: where are the registration forms?"

Perhaps they are to go to a certain place and register there, hence it would be the pro-Russian forces with the registration forms right now, and not the Jews?

"The clerks at the front counter at city hall had to've known about this; if they weren't taking the registrations, they at least had to've been told who was; any reporter worth his salt would've called them to see what they had to say. I'm certain that was done. So where are their statements? There are only two possible responses: "yes, we were prepared to register Jews", or "no, I have no idea what you're talking about"."

OR there's the third answer...one which is given oh-so-many times...

I think you might have heard it before--

"No comment?"

And let's entertain both sides of this--if they WERE willing to register Jews, then, as already stated, do you think they'd likewise be willing to come out and announce that to the media via low-level clerks in interviews when, as you said, that could create a firestorm and damage the credibility of their little attempt at a government? And if they're NOT actually willing to register Jews, but just want them to shit their pants a little and use this letter more as a threat than an actual call to action, then the clerks very well might not know about this after all, since it'd be more of a threat than an actual bureaucratic procedure.

"Ukrainian and Israeli reporters are either incompetent or deliberately failed to include evidence - or its lack - for this alleged registration program."

Why gee, Tolstoy, you're right, that's a fact and not an OPINION at all...

But why shouldn't you represent your own facts as opinions and biases when that's at least in part what you're alleging this story to be based on?

Why, that'd almost be a hypocritical statement, one you might want to distance yourself from lest it damage your credibility...

"We even have doubts within the Jewish community:

"Olga Reznikova, 32, a Jewish resident of Donetsk, told Ynet she never experienced anti-Semitism in the city until she saw this leaflet. 'We don't know if these notifications were distributed by pro-Russian activists or someone else, but it's serious that it exists,'"

and:

"'Who is behind this is an open question,' Rabbi Pinkhas Vishedski said in the statement""

Because as we all know, two people represent the entire Jewish community!

I'd add that the second statement is only a guy saying he doesn't know who's behind this, not that it's fake.

As for the first one, she seemed to say "it's serious that it exists," so that seems to be rather more...well, fear than doubt?

What's more, while I'm happy she hasn't experienced any Antisemitism, again, given the fact the first synagogue in decades was vandalized in March...and that on one end of this spectrum you have pro-Russian forces and the other end you have groups painting swastikas on doors...

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say Antisemitism in Ukraine is about as dead as racism in America is.

And from the original USA Today article--

"But he said the Russian side has used the specter of anti-Semitism in a cynical manner. Russia and its allies in Ukraine have issued multiple stories about the threat posed to Jews by Ukraine's new pro-Western government in Kiev, Salberg said.

"The message is a message to all the people that is we're going to exert our power over you," he said. "Jews are the default scapegoat throughout history for despots to send a message to the general public: Don't step out of line."

So when you say...

"Even the victims in Donetsk are unconvinced the government is behind this."

Were you just ignoring that part?

"So we have a news story about unknown masked people handing out leaflets demanding that Jews register themselves and their property or face punishment. I have no doubts that this actually happened. The obvious assumption - the assumption which probably 80-90% of the people reading this story, and probably 98% of people who just read the headline - is that the new pro-Russian government is behind it, and men with guns will actually take the Jews away if they don't comply. This is an assumption the article avoids correcting, even though it apparently can find no supporting evidence for it."

Except for all that aforementioned rhetoric and the history of governments in that region both being behind and following through on threats.

Supposition we'd make?
Yes.
Unfounded?
I'd argue not.

And I'm willing to be the people actually affected by this--ie, the Ukrainian Jews--would likewise argue it's not an unfounded fear, either.

"So if the government isn't behind this, who is?"

How did we suddenly decide the government isn't behind it?

At best your argument makes it uncertain as to who's behind it, but may I ask why that uncertainty immediately leads to your excluding the government?

"The problem is it's not hard to print up some leaflets, buy some masks, and pass them out at a synagogue."

Which is why the government would never give masked people leaflets, tell them to pass them out at a synagogue, and then be able to retain a degree of plausible deniability in the eyes of the world by not directly affiliating themselves with those men.

If you are a Jew in Ukraine...do you really want to take the chance that this and the worsening conditions there from both sides of this conflict isn't going to culminate in anything? Do you really want to bet that, in Ukraine of all places, nothing bad is going to happen to Jews as a result of action either from Ukraine's new Far-Right or these pro-Russian forces, be they allied with or splintered off from the actual government there? Is the track record really good enough for Jews in this region of the world where you'd read and see and hear reports like that and want to take your chances there rather than, again, leaving this country while the getting's good for America, Canada, Israel, or other countries that would be willing and able to take in Jewish refugees (and in reality probably provide a better standard of living than Ukraine can give, I might add?)

I'm just saying...in UKRAINE of all places...if you're Jewish...

Do you really want to take the chance and bet that this time it ISN'T a legit threat?

"It could be anyone. It could be kids pulling a prank. It could be neo-Nazis (or whatever the Ukrainian equivalent is), trying to intimidate the Jewish community. It could be someone in the Jewish community themselves, trying to scare Jews into supporting a particular faction. It could be mapleleaf."

Oh, well that's not fair, Tolstoy...

We all know mapleleaf's a classy enough guy that he'd email that stuff to the people instead of making them carry around a leaflet like that.

But you're right, it could be kids...kids that somehow are able to order their very own masked militants around.

The fact of the matter is that this being open-ended does NOT mean "it could be anyone," but rather that it could be a few different people/factions...any of which, could again pose a threat to the Jewish people in Ukraine.

"But my money would be on someone trying to make the pro-Russian faction in the East Ukraine look bad, catch the attention of everyone who remembers the Holocaust, and create support from the world's Jewish community for a struggle they may not feel they have a stake in."

1. They don't have to try to make the pro-Russian forces look bad, and
2. So you have no evidence for THAT supposition...but you're OK backing that one rather than the supposition that either the pro-Russia government or a splinter from that government is behind this?
bo_sox48 (5202 DMod(G))
18 Apr 14 UTC
Holy shit Obi...
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
18 Apr 14 UTC
@bo_sox:

"why does Putin have to be a "friend to the Jews?""

Because historically, when the Russian leader isn't a "friend to the Jews," that's bad news for Jews anywhere near the region?

As to your question about the GOP/Jews/Israel...

I'll touch on that now, since I'm incredibly sick of that GOP ploy too...

Here's the thing among American Jews (at least, as an American Jew and knowing others)--

As long as America is an ally of Israel, we generally don't care or mind if America disagrees with Israel on some things, because we KNOW at the end of the day, the mutual connection and need for this alliance between the two is far too great for this to really be a genuine concern. Even so, however, there's the additional fact that we know that Israel won't fall apart if America disagrees with them, or even if America tries to support something Israel's none too pleased with, aka, if they wanted to try and give some support to the Palestinians.

As long as America's always there to support Israel if things REALLY escalated (see: Iran vs. Israel, if that ever became a reality) we know that, hey, Israel has one of the top militaries in the world, and they've been winning battles and wars for 60+ years...mostly because they've had to in order to survive. They're big boys. From the perspective of American Jews, they can take care of themselves on such things.

Palestinian suicide bombers, attacks from Hamas or Hezbollah, possible spillover from Syria...Israel doesn't need America to hold its hand. We know this. We know Israel can take care of itself, so the GOP's fear factor doesn't work there, since being AMERICAN Jews, we live in this country first, and that means that unless Obama took to wiping his ass with the Star of David, chances are we're not switching sides in this (I'll say why I think we're liberal in a second) especially when...

Well, being primarily-liberal has worked out pretty for the Jews in America, hasn't it?

We've had a pretty good deal in America after those first few up and down decades...we have plenty of Congressmen and plenty of involvement and freedom and so on. Things are good for the Jews as liberals, so it'd take something pretty big to shake that allegiance, especially when...wait for it...

The GOP--gasp!--has a strong backing from the Religious Right, and if there's one thing most Jews CAN agree on, it's that they want absolutely no part of Christians on the Religious Right, and given the last 2,000 years, I think we can all see why.

Jews and the Right-leaning Christians...not a match made in heaven.

Jews and the laid-back set on the Pacific Coast, or more uptown set you get from the Northeastern Democratic set, when the former and latter both feature the areas where Jews are most concentrated and have made their biggest cultural marks, Los Angeles and New York? Seems legit.

Jews in a coalition with white Christians of the middle of the country? Historically, that's a relationship that's never taken.

Jews in a coalition with blacks, Latinos and gays, all of whom can also claim to have faced victimization in their history and all of whom experienced a Renaissance in the 1960s in literature, art, music and political influence (the gays and Latinos coming later to that last party but making up for it now), which is when the Jews really began to take off as well?

Especially when those kinds of people are the kinds of people you commonly meet in Los Angeles and New York?

Now THAT sounds like a more natural "band of brothers," doesn't it?

And the GOP isn't stupid...at least in this respect. They know this.

So what's the one and, really, only thing that comes even remotely close to being the kind of unifying factor between White Christians on the Religious Right (and we're talking more about the Rick Santorum/Michelle Bachmann set than every single last Christian you've ever met being implicated in this) an American Jews?

Israel...but for very different reasons, and therein lies yet another reason American Jews won't vote for the GOP based on this.

Why do we, American Jews, care about Israel?
Simple--we care about the well-being of fellow Jews and the Jewish people. Bonus points if you're the type that really does care about the idea of a Jewish homeland.
Why do the Christian Right care?
Two reasons--
And NEITHER of them have to do with those above reasons...they care because...

1. Israel makes a convenient force in the region to fight all the battles against Arabs that America might not want to face, and

2. Some very, very old Holy Book, apparently, read by old white men in flannel on Christian TV networks with terrible production values--really, you couldn't start courting our friendship by contracting us to make your 2014 stations look a bit less like they were produced in 1984?--are of the opinion that said very, very old Holy Book requires a Jewish state to fight a very, very big war that costs many, many lives for the End Times to begin and Jesus Christ to return.

Do EITHER of those sound like compelling reasons for you if you're a Jew?

Either they like you because they want you to fight a war for them, or they like you because they want you to fight an even bigger war and act as a proof THEIR religion is right and that the End Times are occurring (an End Times that isn't exactly kind to the Jews, but we'll leave that alone for now.)

So, when the GOP's angle on this is "But we LOVE Israel...aren't you afraid OBama will destroy it???"

Our collective response is "No...probably not...not when we're sitting on one of the world's best armies, air forces, nuclear weapons and the fact that America'd still side with us against the enemies that we might really need help against, like Iran...and hey, Religious Right Republicans, why are you being so nice to us all of a sudden? The Religious Right spent the better part of, oh, all of its existence hating us--hey! This wouldn't have anything to do with you wanting Israel to exist JUST so it can either fight a war against Arabs or an even bigger war against Arabs and cause the end of the world as you think the Bible says, is it?"

"Oh...OH, NO! ...We just realized how...um...how good your artists are! Yeah, that's it! Man, that Billy Joel sure is the Piano Man, isn't he? And...uh...you know...Barbara Streisand and...um...hey, and that Adam Sandler guy's Jewish, right?"

"Yeah, OK, I think we're done here."

:p
I'm inclined to accept that it's a publicity stunt by someone trying to discredit the pro-Russian easterners. I think Tolstoy laid out an excellent case. In addition, I was listening to the radio tonight and heard a guy who's retired CIA opining that this was a "clumsy" attempt by "some Western intelligence agency" to gin up exactly the response we're seeing here. He wouldn't name any names, but if he's right -- and especially if it's proven that he's right -- it's going to be the diplomatic equivalent of the EU/US shooting ourselves in the collective foot......if not a bit higher up the anatomy.

This is, of course, a winning strategy from beginning to end. [rolls eyes]
Of course, if this is in fact genuine, we'll see more evidence of it in the coming days as the perpetrators attempt to enforce their demands with official confirmation, physical enforcement (including, perhaps, violence), and other similar occurrences.
SantaClausowitz (360 D)
18 Apr 14 UTC
(+1)
This is rich,

1. I am not convinced yet. Obis outrage jumped the gun, as Tolstoy states the facts are ambiguous.

2. At the same time, Tolstoy's knee jerk reaction that this is "obviously a false flag," is equally unfounded. All of his arguments are weak as I will be glad to show point by point after I return from a date with a shiksa I'm going on tonight. I find it rich that Tolstoy browbeats obi for jumping to conclusions when his first line in this thread is "obviously this is a false flag operation."

but then again, it very well could be, and his points about media jumping all over this is valid.

Yellowjacket (835 D(B))
18 Apr 14 UTC
(+2)
Obi, I really want to talk to you about brevity. Because I'm sure that somewhere inside you, there exist good points. But not a single person will ever hear those points and witness your divine intellect and iron logic, because not a single person will ever read one of your posts.

This is an intervention. I know it hurts but I say it because I care. You need help.
Gunfighter06 (224 D)
18 Apr 14 UTC
I'd favor a wait-and-see approach, because of the ambiguity of the facts as others have pointed out. That being said, I would not hesitate to insert intelligence assets into the Ukrainian Jewish community right now to monitor the situation. At the first hint of any ethnic violence, the gloves come off and Western intervention is justified.
mapleleaf (0 DX)
18 Apr 14 UTC
tl;dr
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
18 Apr 14 UTC
If I may ask, YJ...what about Tolstoy?

His post was long, too.

And I very much doubt that'll happen, Gunfighter...

We didn't intervene in Syria, and minorities are getting attacked there...

America has war weariness, and I wonder how much different our response would've been if we hadn't just spent over a decade fighting two wars in the desert.
To address the topic.

First, Obi is a fool, and a buffoon that loses whatever modicum of rationality he has every time some media outlet presses the outrage button. Then proceeds to make a complete fool of himself arguing absolutely nothing. I will say nothing more of this idiot.

Tolstoy's argument has more weight, because, well, its an argument rather than a bout of gas.

but then again it is an argument that does not jive with his initial proclamation "obviously this is a false flag..." no it isn't. Even in your conclusion you admit that it could be a number of perpetrators, although of course you have a soft spot for the CIA. This could have been anyone, you make a big deal about masks to hide identity, yet anyone watching the news have seen Ukrainian separatists don their masks pretty liberally. There are many pro-Russian groups that may hate jews and want to take advantage of this situation, then again there are many anti-Russian groups too. I don't think this was the local government, but it could have been. Is the great conspiracy theorist REALLY taking an official at his word? Is it that hard to believe that a mayor of a town in eastern Ukraine or stupider elements of his likely disorganized government/paramilitary arm thought that could get away with scaring the small Jewish without it being huge news? I myself do not believe that this came from the highest echelons, but until new evidence comes out I'm not going to dismiss it. It could have been anyone, stop pretending otherwise and writing out your next theory before the evidence is in.
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
18 Apr 14 UTC
Well, thanks, Santa...it's always nice to see you care...

A shame that you reserve your outrage for petty little pissing contents and sniping at people even when they potentially agree with you, but hey, whatever does it for you.

As to those that might actually be able to form an independent, bile-free opinion in a mature conversation between adults...

http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/17/world/ukraine-religious-threats/index.html

"Geoffrey Pyatt, the U.S. ambassador to Ukraine, told CNN's "The Lead with Jake Tapper" that a respected Jewish leader in Ukraine showed him a photograph of one of the leaflets. He called the document "chilling."

And in Geneva, where diplomats held emergency talks on the Ukrainian crisis, U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry called the leaflets "grotesque" and "beyond unacceptable."

But the Jewish community statement said relations between the Jews of Donetsk and their neighbors were amicable, and the self-proclaimed head of the "People's Republic," Denis Pushilin, denied any connection to the fliers."

1. It'd seem to me the US State Department's taking it as more than just "a kid pulling a prank," Tolstoy...they don't generally involve the Secretary of State or hold emergency meetings for something they think is nothing--and they have better resources and sources than you or I or USA Today or A Newstation Calling Itself CNN.

2. I find it interesting this version of the story says the Jews are on good relations with their neighbors when that hasn't been congruous with the other reports from other sources...
I find it funny that you talk about people forming an independent opinion, when it seems you are far too ready to accept what the western liberal media tells you. Again, I'm not saying they are lying, but they have their own narrative, one that is subjective, and biased.
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
18 Apr 14 UTC
"I find it funny that you talk about people forming an independent opinion, when it seems you are far too ready to accept what the western liberal media tells you."

And using a term like "western liberal media" doesn't express any degree of bias, I suppose?
it's impossible for people not be biased, and your response was not a response to my point. and i wasn't really being biased in any great way, if you referenced fox i wouldn't say western liberal media, just western media, and it is a fact it is western media, and the agencies you have referenced are liberal, so i don't see what i said that is so problematic
mapleleaf (0 DX)
18 Apr 14 UTC
obi possesses ZERO substance.
Yellowjacket (835 D(B))
18 Apr 14 UTC
@Obi:

Long, yes, but it was addressed specifically to me. Even so, I *would* have ignored it but even in scanning I could see that he was making a lot of good points per unit volume of text.

There's no way you, obi, can't find a way to get your point across with about 1/3 to 1/2 the text. You need to be more severe with your writing, more willing to sacrifice unnecessary or distracting points from the main body.
Gobbledydook (1389 D(B))
18 Apr 14 UTC
It's not the first day we knew obi was a bad writer...
Yellowjacket (835 D(B))
18 Apr 14 UTC
I'm not even saying he's a bad writer. He's probably a good writer if he stops drowning in words.
bo_sox48 (5202 DMod(G))
18 Apr 14 UTC
@Obi ... "Because historically, when the Russian leader isn't a "friend to the Jews," that's bad news for Jews anywhere near the region?"

Do you expect him to care? He's leading for Russia, not for you.

"As long as America is an ally of Israel, we generally don't care or mind if America disagrees with Israel on some things, because we KNOW at the end of the day, the mutual connection and need for this alliance between the two is far too great for this to really be a genuine concern."

Have you heard Obama speak? He'd get rid of Israel if he could get away with it. He hates that place.

Regarding the rest of that post, I have no idea what you're on about, because I didn't say the Republicans are biased in favor of Israel for the Jews' sake, but for practical purposes, which the Democrats should be too... you basically ignored that, so I don't know what to say there.

Otherwise, yeah, cut your posts into thirds... intervention will be successful...

@Gun ... "That being said, I would not hesitate to insert intelligence assets into the Ukrainian Jewish community right now to monitor the situation. At the first hint of any ethnic violence, the gloves come off and Western intervention is justified."

How can you want such small government everything and then want "Western intervention" at the first potential sign of ethnic turmoil? How do you want such a big military yet want to cut spending? You'd have to get rid of the rest of the government to do both. Besides, if we go to war with Russia, I am moving my ass to fucking Australia and I'll never talk to any of you assholes that think that's a good idea again.


55 replies
wmort (180 D)
18 Apr 14 UTC
Potential Bug in Game #139262
Hey, I have a potential bug I would like to report to whomever I report to.
4 replies
Open
SYnapse (0 DX)
16 Apr 14 UTC
Making games using Unity3d
Anyone have experience of this? It seems very easy to use. Last night I created a small FPS with a flashlight and a health counter in about 20 lines of code.
1 reply
Open
stupidfighter (253 D)
18 Apr 14 UTC
In need of an Italy.
Spring 01, had a player banned. Full press, 1 day phase.
gameID=139906
2 replies
Open
CommanderByron (801 D(S))
17 Apr 14 UTC
Modern Europe 14
Please join we need 1 more player to make it a full game.
0 replies
Open
Gobbledydook (1389 D(B))
15 Apr 14 UTC
5-point Invitational
For old times' sake!
5 point buy-in WTA full press.
The 6 entrants with the earliest join date get to play with me!
Sign up below. Signups close when I feel there's enough old timers.
13 replies
Open
Vampiero (3525 D)
16 Apr 14 UTC
New kinda game
I got this idea from another forum post n I wanna play world diplomacy version. If u wanna play leave it emails n when I got 16 more players
I will email u the link b password. The game goes like this... Two teams. One 8 players nether
9 replies
Open
fearlessmidget (225 D)
16 Apr 14 UTC
Why F Mur?
Sorry if this question has been answered, I couldn't find it anywhere. In the Modern Diplomacy II variant, we have a fleet in Murmansk. But in the variant rules (that we link to!!!) there's supposed to be an army in Murmansk.

Why the change? It seems to me that it just gives Russia less options when Russia is already under a lot of pressure in the first year.
0 replies
Open
Draugnar (0 DX)
12 Apr 14 UTC
the Leagues are coming back...
And this time there are a couple twists...
41 replies
Open
yebellz (729 D(G))
15 Apr 14 UTC
With praise
I am glad to see that the mods these days are cracking down on these annoying live game ads.

threadID=1121742
threadID=1121721
7 replies
Open
Triumvir (1193 D)
16 Jan 14 UTC
(+2)
SoW Study Group: Official Thread
SoW Study Group Game: gameID=133722

Please reserve this thread for prof commentary and questions. Good luck to all the players.
248 replies
Open
ssorenn (0 DX)
16 Apr 14 UTC
Team game
Is it possible to create a WTA full press game,where each country had two players play it? Press could come from either player, and would be received by both players...
2 replies
Open
Dharmaton (2398 D)
16 Apr 14 UTC
Astrology
Sharing some videos to carry you through this Intense month !!!
5 replies
Open
ezra willis (305 D)
15 Apr 14 UTC
2 team game
Would any of you guys be interested in joining a game that starts out with just 2 sides? One side would consist of England, France, Germany, and Italy and the other would consist of Turkey, Russia, and Austria. The game would be drawn once one side is eliminated.
9 replies
Open
krellin (80 DX)
15 Apr 14 UTC
GM Is Innocent
As above, so below:
34 replies
Open
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