The stakes change, the pressure increases and so does the quality of the opposing defence.

Performing consistently in the regular season is one thing and in the playoffs is another.

The Manning brothers are ironically case study examples of regular season vs post season.

Eli Manning post season stats vs regular season stats are lightyears apart, year after year in the regular season all he does is throw picks but when the games start to matter, he becomes a completely different player. Holding multiple post season passing records.

Peyton is the opposite, posting godly after godly regular season stats and then sees his performance drop come the post season.

Clutch is something that is real, some players have it and some don't.

Clutch is a mythological falsehood! Listen to this *CLIMATE SCIENTIST*:

http://research.sabr.org/journals/the-statistical-mirage-of-clutch-hitting

So... why do you persist in believing in clutch performance? OR IS THIS CLIMATE SCIENTIST ("Harold Brooks is a Ph.D. candidate in atmospheric sciences") FULL OF SHIT?

No quarterback in modern NFL history has EVER played behind a defense. Sammy Baugh did it for the 'Skins in the forties.....

I am fully aware that most of the people "contributing" to this thread were not yet their parents' worst mistake when Bradshaw played.

Hey Fasces. Was your da-da even BORN YET in 1980?

For all of you ignorant snot-nosed whelps, here's the news...

Bradshaw played in a different era, when NFL defenses could take a LOT more liberties with the oppo.

Remember?(oh sorry, that's right...)

His last two Super Bowl victories were carried primarily by HIS OFFENSE, not the Steel Curtain.

Remember?(oh sorry, I keep forgetting....)

He is STILL the ONLY quarterback to throw a touchdown in the fourth quarter of FOUR SUPER BOWLS.

He BEAT the Doomsday Defense of Dallas AND the Purple People Eaters defense of Minnesota. He played his best games in the BIGGEST games against the BEST defenses. Unlike Pussy Manning or Over Rated Brady.

HE made an average of SIXTY FIVE decisions under EXTREME PRESSURE in those four Super Bowls. He called his own plays(nobody has addressed this yet. Gee, I wonder why?)

Oh, and Joe Montana, whom all of you kiddies are soooooo in love with played behind some AWESOME defenses(Ronnie Lott?).

For the record, I have Terry and Joe tied for the best.

Excluding TB from consideration is just plain ignorant.

Let's not forget Bradshaw couldn't spell and smoked.
I love that guy

Hollywood Henderson famously mocked TB by saying he was so stupid, that he couldn't spell "cat" if you spotted him the "c" and the "a".

After SB XIII, a new SB passing yards record, and the MVP award in a 35-31 victory, Bradshaw faced the cameras with a big smile on his face and drawled, "That was F-U-N".

Remember, oh sorry again.....

Damn crickets......

Clutch is fake. I am open to the idea that some players panic on a big stage, which is different from clutch. But Peyton Manning has played at the highest levels of football for years. Basically his entire life, he's been considered among (and been playing against) the best - why is it realistic to think that he would suddenly start falling apart? In such a small sample size, it's apparent that Manning simply ran into better teams. A quarterback can't do everything, after all. In the Super Bowl, Manning didn't play well, but I don't think there's a quarterback alive who could have changed the outcome or made it substantially closer. (I do believe that there is a skill to winning close games, which might overlap a bit with what looks like clutch.)

The Eli vs. Peyton comparison is particularly difficult to swallow. Eli gets on a hot streak at the right time twice, and he's suddenly "clutch"? It's this kind of thinking that got Flacco that nonsensical giant contract, which is going to make things hard for the Ravens for a while.

It's realistic to think that Manning will suddenly start falling apart because he'll be 38 in a little more than a month.

Athletes are NOT wine or cheese, if you get my drift.

You're welcome.

Come on tendmote, you know full well (at least you would if you read more then that one article on clutch hitting) that the sabermetric science is conflicted on the issue of clutch. The most sophisticated and largest study on clutch hitting in baseball found that there is such thing as clutch.

http://insidethebook.com/c04.shtml

I've seen enough Tony Romo and Tom Brady games to know that clutch exists.

"The Eli vs. Peyton comparison is particularly difficult to swallow. Eli gets on a hot streak at the right time twice, and he's suddenly "clutch"? It's this kind of thinking that got Flacco that nonsensical giant contract, which is going to make things hard for the Ravens for a while."
Say what you want, CKRoberts, but name another QB besides Eli Manning who has never lost a post-season road game and is 2-0 in the super bowl.

One reason Eli never lost a post-season road game is losing lots of home playoff games to end his season. But, no, Eli is "clutch" while Peyton's a choker for losing the Super Bowl against one of the best defenses, statistically, in NFL history.

If Eli Manning were a better quarterback, he'd have a worse play-off and Super Bowl record, because his team would be in the playoffs more (the way Peyton Manning's team always are).

Tom Brady is 18-8 in the playoffs over 26 total games. Peyton Manning is 11-12 over 23 games.

Eli Manning is 8-3 in the playoffs over 11 total games. Ben Rapistberger is 10-4 over 14 playoff games.

You could argue for days whether Brady is better than Peyton and vice versa, but Brady has a clear edge in playoff wins. So why doesn't Brady have a worse playoff record if their postseason appearances are very much comparable? The same goes with Eli and Rapistberger. Your argument makes no sense, ckroberts.

The biggest difference between Brady and Peyton vs. Eli and Rapistberger is that Brady and Peyton get to feast on poor AFC opponents all year. If the Giants or Steelers got to play the Bills/Dolphins or Jaguars/Texans/Titans for most of the last decade, the playoff picture would be much different. Last season notwithstanding, because the NFC East sucked, the Giants had to play very competitive Cowboys and Eagles team four times per year, while the Steelers had similarly solid Bengals and Ravens four times per year. You could basically give the Patriots and Colts the division title each year since Brady and Peyton entered the league since neither had any real divisional competition.

2WL: Maybe the Patriots were better than the Colts/Broncos all those years? My point isn't that Peyton Manning's playoff record means he is better or worse than anyone else, it's that playoff record alone is not by itself a reason to rank one single player over another. Maybe Peyton would have gotten some of those teams to the playoffs (and lost against the strong competition) which Eli saw eliminated in the last couple of weeks of the season.

But playoff records don't count the way everyone seems to think they do. I mean, Joe Flacco and Eli Manning have better postseason records than Dan Marino or Drew Brees or Aaron Rodgers. I'd trade both Flacco and Eli for any one of Marino, Brees, or Rodgers.

I do concede that Manning and Brady maybe played weaker opponents (definitely for Brady - AFC is the Pats and a clown show) but doesn't, to any obvious reason I can see, mean they're bad quarterbacks. The fancy stats guys who always show Brady and Manning as being among the best QBs usually have ways to adjust for strength of schedule, which isn't nearly as important in the NFL as it is in college football (for comparison).

that should be, "AFC East is the Pats and a clown show".

@Fasces "Manning had the best O-Line in history (which granted also had their worst game of the season), and a top 5 run defense in the league"

Manning always has "the best" offensive lines because he gets rid of the ball more quickly than any other quarterback and lines his guys up in the right spot almost every time. I'm pretty sure two of his linemen were pulled in off the street at the start of the year due to injuries, but hey, they were just hidden gems.

Also, of course they had the fifth best run defense, they were ahead every game! Please tell me what do teams do when they're behind twenty points. They throw... a lot. This solves that issue.

As for offensive skill talent, I completely agree, this is the best receiving core Manning has ever had, but he also just makes everyone around him better. I truly believe if Manning did not Quarterback for Marvin Harrison, no one but Colts fans would even know Marvin Harrison.

As for Eli's playoff stats, they are only marginally better than Peyton's, as witnessed by any comparison. The only curiosity there is that Eli's do get better whereas Peyton's get worse. I admit, that is impressive, but it's not a knock on Peyton, just a testament to Eli. Does that make him more clutch? I don't know. He doesn't look very clutch in the other eight years of his career, but hey, he has two rings. Good for him.

@Maple
You're right, I never saw Bradshaw play, so I really can't say where I would place him in the GoAT debate. I'm sorry I can't debate that more accurately with you.

@2ndWhiteLine
Please, the Cowboys and the Eagles were two of the worst defenses in the league this year. Telling me Eli struggled because of the strength of his schedule is not very valid if these are the examples you are going to bring up.

Statistically, you're probably right. Brady and Manning's stats have most likely been a little inflated by playing poor divisional competition, but you would be hard pressed to convince me you could throw any quarterback in those divisions and see similar numbers. Look at what happened when Manning went down with the Colts!

@2ndWhiteLine
Sorry, missed your concession of the NFC East sucking last year, but at least since Eli has been there, the Eagles and the Cowboys have been far from defensive juggernauts.

Simple clutch statistic:

To measure this statistic we will be looking at what are commonly considered to be clutch games. We will look at the permille of 'clutch games' to determine the clutch of the player. For example, if I win 16 'clutch games' and lose 10 'clutch games' my score will be 615

A clutch game is defined as a game with a comeback opportunity, an overtime opportunity, or a big game:

A Comeback Opportunity is defined as where the quarterback has possession in a one game where they are losing by fewer than 7 in the 4th quarter. (I.e. the Chargers loss to the Broncos wasn't considered a comeback opportunity because after the game became a 7 point game, the chargers never regained possession)

An Overtime Opportunity is defined as a game where the QB had possession in OT.

A Big Game is simply defined as a playoff game, where super bowl games count for double. Obviously here the argument is that clutch players are expected to perform on the big stage.

Assuming we use this as the definition of a clutch game, here is a list of all active players (minimum 15 clutch games) and a few notable HOFers (Unfortunately I couldn't find any data for Joe Montana on comeback opportunities; as such he could not be included in the list.).
For players who had a freak year that skewed their stats, I ignored the year (with their stats including that year posted)
This doesn't include the 2013 season, so some numbers (especially younger quarterbacks) will be off.
(Caps=retired)

JOE MONTANA 632
Tom Brady: 627
Eli Manning: 551
Matt Ryan: 516 (571 including the 2012 season)
Peyton Manning: 496
JOHN ELWAY: 492
DAN MARINO: 492
Jay Cutler: 486
Ben Roethlisberger: 478 (531 including 2004 season)
Russel Wilson: 462
Joe Flacco: 455 (511 including super bowl run)
TROY AIKMAN: 449
STEVE YOUNG: 448
Drew Brees: 442
Alex Smith: 419
BRETT FAVRE: 403
KURT WARNER: 400
Tony Romo: 400
Matt Stafford: 375
Matt Schaub: 361
Aaron Rodgers: 349
Andy Dalton: 333
Philip Rivers: 328
Carson Palmer: 317

Some notes (either stuff I found interesting or clarifications):
This attempts to measure clutch, and is not an overall measure of a players performance.

If you ignore Eli Manning’s 2 super bowl seasons, he plummets to a 351. He's either a god (833 average in those 2 years) or slightly below average. Eli Manning, Tom Brady and Joe Montana are the only 3 players to have recorded above 800 on more than one occasion.

I could only find data for Joe Montana for the 81, 83, 84, 85, 87, 89, 90, and 94 seasons. As a result his number is not a fully accurate representation of his entire career. Either way, I think its undisputed that Brady and Montana are the two best all time clutch players.

Tom Brady had the best single season, which was 2003 earning a score of 917. This was not an anomaly, has he has been able to post 875 the following year and 800 in 2010.

Joe Montana's best season was 1984, where he posted 909. He and Brady have both posted above 800 on 3 separate occasions.

Ben Roethlisberger scored 889 in his rookie season despite not winning the super bowl. He posted 636 and 769 in the years he won the super bowl. He, Brady and Peyton are the only ones who posted above 700 in a year where they did not win the super bowl.

Eli Manning participated in 18 clutch games in 2011 no other QB has participated in more than 14.

2 QBs technically scored better then Joe Cool on the all-time rankings, however I didn't include them due to lack of games (12 and 11 respectively). Tim Tebow (667) and Andrew Luck (636). With that in my mind, maybe Tim Tebow deserves a contract, lol

To my surprise, Peyton Manning is actually a clutch player, as he is 5th all-time in clutch games. He is also one of 3 players (Brady and Montana being the others) to post 3 or more seasons above a 667.

Aaron Rodgers is the prototype example of a super star who lacks clutch. Only on 5 occasions has he leaded a 4th quarter comeback, despite having 27 opportunities to do so.

Tony Romo is underrated. He has 18 'comeback' wins and a 4th quarter passer rating of 100.7, and a career passer rating of 95.6, which is the 5th in all time rankings. Given all the hate he gets (I'm looking at you Obi), he is one of the most underrated QBs of all time and second to Kurt Warner as the best undrafted QB of all time.

The above data took me almost 6 hours to gather and sort (you can thank adderall).


With the above data in mind, I'd like Montana to be moved to the #2 spot on my list. I'll admit to Obi that I vastly underrated him.

1. Tom Brady
2. Joe Montana
3. Peyton Manning
4. Jon Elway
5. Kurt Warner
6. Aaron Rodgers
7. Drew Brees
8. Dan Marino

Fasces349s method for accurately determined whether Peyton Manning or Tom Brady is a better QB:

Step 1: Go back in time to shortly before Peyton signed with the Broncos.
Step 2: Have Peyton sign with the Dolphins instead.
Step 3: Every week 9 from now till when Brady and Peyton retire have the two teams trade Peyton for Brady
Step 4: From now on every week 1 will be New England @ Miami and week 17 will be Miami and New England
Step 5: Make them play the same teams on alternating weeks, ie who New England plays in week 2, Maimi plays in week 3. Etc.
Step 6: watch them both fail miserably due to never being able to settle in to their select teams. However at least the circumstances they will play under will be similar enough that after 2-3 years you will have enough information to accurately conclude who is the better QB once and for all.

We then get to see both QBs play on the same teams, with the same players and coaching staff as eachother AND we get to see them play twice a year, 3 if they face in the playoffs we could get a reasonable sense of who is the better player.

Fasces that is a fascinating list. I don't know where the numbers come from, though. Do you have the raw numbers for how many "clutch" games there were? Sample size would have to be very large for me to feel confident about it, in a game where there are 22 players on the field and half the time that does not include the quarterback. For Aaron Rodgers I see 27 opportunities, which is really a tiny number when there are so many things the quarterback does not control. If I am the quarterback in OT, and on the first play the opposing quarterback throws a pick six, do I get clutch credit for that?

For the comeback to count offence has to score the game winner. For the OT to count offence has to score either the game tying score (ie force the OT) or the game winner.

It isn't perfect though. A good example would be OT winner Brady over Manning. Brady never got the ball past his own 40 yard line. The special teams got him into FG range and he was credited with the win.