Forum
A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
Page 922 of 1419
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Disraeli (427 D)
07 Jun 12 UTC
rule question
If all players vote both "draw" and "cancel", does the game draw or cancel?
14 replies
Open
rokakoma (19138 D)
07 Jun 12 UTC
EoG - Bad Players Welcome
6 replies
Open
Zmaj (215 D(B))
06 Jun 12 UTC
Atheists and death
See below.
59 replies
Open
NigeeBaby (100 D(G))
08 Jun 12 UTC
I don't believe this ...... I think it's just Rumours !!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-18363214
3 replies
Open
smcbride1983 (517 D)
07 Jun 12 UTC
Getting people to talk
I usually get the ball rolling and open up communication with everyone before spring of the first year is over. However, recently I took over for someone and I can't get any dialogue going with the other folks. Any suggestions?
12 replies
Open
NigeeBaby (100 D(G))
07 Jun 12 UTC
A perfect candidate for Site Moderator
......witty, charming, intellectual, tough, fair, honest, resilient, you know who !!
23 replies
Open
Stressedlines (1559 D)
07 Jun 12 UTC
EoG GB 55
gameID=91011

thoughts?
10 replies
Open
The Czech (41806 D(S))
08 Jun 12 UTC
Need a sitter for a live game.
Wife needs me to help her with something. Will be AFK for an hour or so. Other wise a good position gets lost and screws the game for everyone. Please help.
gameID=91026
PM me and I'll tell you which country I am.
0 replies
Open
Stressedlines (1559 D)
07 Jun 12 UTC
can someoen tam,e over this poistion in a gunboat?
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=91011#gamePanel
6 replies
Open
jabberjawsjr (100 D)
30 May 12 UTC
Favorite Italy Openings
What are your favorite Italy openings?
20 replies
Open
SantaClausowitz (360 D)
29 May 12 UTC
Daily Christian Slaughter Thread
Perhaps I'm just glib. I guess I understand that Jesus might want to test his flock by making them martyrs every once in a while, but why would he allow them to massacre innocents in his name? This thread will explore this question, semi daily.
Page 5 of 5
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krellin (80 DX)
30 May 12 UTC
Christians shouldn't fear confrontation...they should counter with love and understanding. More christian hypocrisy from the loud-mouthed evangelicals...

If Jesus lived like Mujus....He probably wouldn't of gotten hung on the cross...and there would be no savior...Instead he flipped the money-changers tables and he called out the pharisees. Mujus is, again, a hypocrite.
semck83 (229 D(B))
30 May 12 UTC
krellin,

I'll take your comments at face value then. One of the biggest problems I see with (most of) your criticisms of Christians -- "hypocrisy" etc. -- is that many of them seem to assume that the Christian is supposed to keep all of Christ's commands perfectly, and if he doesn't, he's a hypocrite. But of course that's not true. In fact, you can't believe that you do that and be a Christian (I John 1:8).

The point of Christianity is not to perfectly obey Christ's commands, although that should be what we STRIVE to do, and it is true that we should reflect that better and better as time goes on, ideally. But the point is that we will fail, and that forgiveness is available. So it's not fair or true to call a Christian a hypocrite because he fails to uphold some command of Christ in some case. To be a hypocrite, he would have to first claim that he did uphold it (and of course, there ARE plenty of such hypocrites around). What the Christian really does (or anyway should) claim is that he is forgiven by God when he doesn't. (And, hopefully, that he at least strives to uphold those ideals).

So there's nothing wrong with graciously pointing out when a Christian fails to live up to those ideals. I for one would appreciate it -- or at least try to, lol. But there's something wrong (illogical) with saying he's a hypocrite or a fraud because of that, or that there are no true Christians. That's the wrong definition of true Christian.
krellin (80 DX)
30 May 12 UTC
Semck - I live under NO such delusion that a Christian CAN live up to Christ's example....but a half-assed attempt ONCE in a while might be nice.

In fact, the point of Christianity IS TO PERFECTLY OBEY CHRIST. The purpose is to become Christ-like....if you don't get that, you need to find a new church, buddy...or maybe, you know, read that book you claim to love....because it's pretty much spelled out in there. "To live is Christ, to die is gain" says Paul. i.e. I should be as Christ while I am alive...nothing more, nothing less. You shoudl be a "living sacrific" for Christ, givnig up all you want in order to be Christ-like. Not half-assed, sometimes almost like Him. You should sacrifice yourself DAILY to be as much like Christ, obedient to Christ as possible.

You, sir are exactly the type of Christian hypocrite I refer to...hemming and hawing, equivocating and making excuses as to why you still live a life of *intentional* sin for your own pleasure when God **died** on the cross for you. He *DIED* for you and you are like...well...maybe I'll obey...when I feel like it. God hates you.

Again...if you fail, that is a given...you will. To say "I fail and I won't try to live up to 100% obedience" is half-assed sinful bullshit. It's why all the atheists around here hate the Christians.
krellin (80 DX)
30 May 12 UTC
And to correct you, to claim to uphold the rules and then not would make him a liar, not a hypocrite. What makes someone a hypocrite is saying "We are supposed to do X if we are Christians"...then say "I'm a Christian"...then say, "I won't/can't live up to X....and therefore won't try." The excuses for failure are cover for NOT TRYNIG most of the time.
Mujus (1495 D(B))
30 May 12 UTC
Yeah, what Semck said! +1. Remember, as we have seen in both John and Luke, Jesus didn't come to save the righteous, but sinners. Also remember this verse (memorized, from the King James version I think): "Beware if you think you stand, lest you fall."
Mujus (1495 D(B))
30 May 12 UTC
Of course Christians try, and pray, to be more like Jesus every day. But contrary to Krellin's statements, that's not the heart of Christianity. We respond to Jesus by trying to be like him, trying to follow his commands, and gradually our character is being transformed to be more like His. But I know from personal experience that I am *not* able to refrain from sinning at all times, since it was proved to me back in the 70's, when I lived with a family in a foreign country and had basically no distractions, plus all the time in the world to read the Bible and pray--and I determined not to sin. But I still sinned! So the heart of Christianity is to realize that Jesus loves us even as sinners, even before we respond to Him, but his greatest desire is for us to turn to God of our own free will.
Mujus (1495 D(B))
30 May 12 UTC
I think it's hypocritical to say that you don't need Jesus. If you *know* that you need him, just *ask* him into your life. I remember in my teens when I had run out of places to turn for help and I just prayed, "*God* help me!" and then wondered why it had taken me so long. Did I feel an immediate manifestation of God's presence? No. But I did have a feeling of peace and of expectation, and God did help me over time.
semck83 (229 D(B))
31 May 12 UTC
OK, krellin -- lots of nonsense here to clear up.

First and off the bat, your definition of Christianity is nonstandard. I'll get to arguing about that momentarily, but as a logical point, right away, let's look at this statement:

"What makes someone a hypocrite is saying "We are supposed to do X if we are Christians"...then say "I'm a Christian""

As you yourself point out here, if you are going to call somebody a hypocrite, you have to use THEIR definition of Christian. For example, suppose I met somebody who called himself a Christian, who was blaspheming, arguing against God, murdering, raping, and stealing. "Umm, what is it you think Christian means?" I might say. "A Christian is anybody who eats pigeon every day for dinner, right?" they responded. I inquire further and find that this fine soul does, in fact, eat pigeon religiously every day for dinner. Now I might call this person confused; theologically very very wrong; and even nonstandard in his usage. But I would not call him a hypocrite.

Similarly, if somebody on this forum (say) says that a Christian is somebody who believes in Christ for salvation -- period -- then you do not get to say, "No, it's somebody who tries to follow Him in everything" and call him a hypocrite. At worst he's confused or theologically wrong.

OK. Moving on.

"In fact, the point of Christianity IS TO PERFECTLY OBEY CHRIST."

Yeah. This is wrong. We ARE supposed to obey Christ, and it is supposed to be the focus of our lives, this is true. This is a command to all Christians. But the point of Christianity is to receive forgiveness through Christ's blood.

"To live is Christ, to die is gain."

I suggest you read the context, in Philippians 1. Paul is talking of his contrasting wishes both to live and to die. The line "to live is Christ" -- well first of all, the "to live" is "as opposed to 'to die.'" Second, the "is Christ" is referring to his ability, while alive, to be in Christ's Spirit (verse 19) and to preach His gospel (verses 22-24). Paul is speaking quite personally here, moreover, as an apostle.

So, you pretty much ripped that one out of context.

"You shoudl be a "living sacrific" for Christ, givnig up all you want in order to be Christ-like."

I agree.

"hemming and hawing, equivocating and making excuses as to why you still live a life of *intentional* sin for your own pleasure"

Where did I say anything about intentional sin being in any way OK? Where did I say anything about not striving constantly to try to be Christlike? I would suggest you think a long long time about Matthew 7:3-5 before you again come on here and make a lot of assumptions about what I mean when I say something else.

"To say "I fail and I won't try to live up to 100% obedience" is half-assed sinful bullshit."

Yeah? And where did I say that? If you can't even read my messages and interpret what they plainly say, why exactly should I care about what you think Scripture says?
krellin (80 DX)
31 May 12 UTC
"But the point of Christianity is to receive forgiveness through Christ's blood." You are so far off the point of what Christianity is about. What you define there is how to become a Christian..how you get saved. ONCE SAVED you are commanded as to how to live.

I pity your horrendous lack of knowledge.

As for "my definition of Christianity"....it isn't "my definition". It's spelled out in the Bible....just crack it open and read it...that would help your confusion.

If you are making excuses for why you can't and why you shouldn't be 100% obediant to Christ, then you are intentionally sinning. there are *no* excuses. Mujus thinks that constant prayer is not commanded...that it means something different. Mujus thinks that the power of faith and prayer are misinterpreted....not real....I was directing my statements more at Mujus' poor understanding of scripture...but if you want to jump in the boat with him, go for it.

But your ramblings aren't that impressive, and aren't that informed. "To live is Christ"...yes...it means for Paul to live in the spirit of Christ...to live as Christ, as Paul himself strived to do AND COMMANDED US TO DO as the voice of God....remember, his words ARE God's inspired words....thus they are God's words of command to us to live as a daily, living sacrifice to be like Christ.

As for itnentioanl sin being OK -- this is implicit in the constant excuses as to why we can't live as Christ. Oh I'm human...i can't. I can't be in constant prayer...I can't do this...can't do that. Yes....all thee things are impossible because of willful sin....the willful disobedience to God. "All things are possible..." the Bible says...so, though once you lived in sin, *with* Christ, *with* the Holy Spirit in-dwelling you, you 8are* able to move forward without sin. THAT is what the Bible says. But it takes what? Ahhh....daily sacrifice...which is a choice. If you are not living daily in the spirit, it is by choice...it is a willful act of sin...*particularly* for someone as informed as you are. You sin willfully....and admitting that is the first step to stopping, and acknowledging the Holy Spirit as your *constant* guide through life.
semck83 (229 D(B))
31 May 12 UTC
krellin,

I started my earlier remark, "I'll take your comments at face value then." I was implicitly saying that I would assume, against past evidence, that you were making an actual argument that you would discuss as a reasonable person. I see that I was wrong and that I am wasting my time.

It is not that there is no truth in what you say. Even the famed Ephesians 2 says,

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

Here we see that we are saved by grace, through faith, yet saved _to do good works._ That is a crucially important and oft neglected aspect of Christianity.

Yet it is also apparent that, sadly, you are not really interested in discussing or interpreting Scripture with even a whiff of subtlety or care, but just using it as a crude tool to justify your own venom and anger toward others.

I hope that one day you can let go of that anger and accept the beautiful words of John,

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous."

Or again,

"Whoever says he is in the light and hates his brother is still in darkness. Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him[b] there is no cause for stumbling."

So I hope, as I say; but meanwhile, there is little point continuing the discussion.
krellin (80 DX)
31 May 12 UTC
"Here we see that we are saved by grace, through faith, yet saved _to do good works._ That is a crucially important and oft neglected aspect of Christianity." DFuhh...isn't that what I said. YOU said the point of Christianity was to be saved. ("But the point of Christianity is to receive forgiveness through Christ's blood.") Now you are backtracking and supporting my case.

There is no point in discussing this with you...you can't keep a consistent thought from one post to the next, and clearly don't have a strong understanding of scripture and the interaction of the Holy Spirit with man, what the commandments to man are, etc.

I'm not talking in anger, unless it is the general disgust I feel for those vocal Christians who damage Christ and their own cause through their ineptitude and lack of full knowledge of the scriptures. YOU CONTRADICT YOURSELF IN THIS THREAD and say I'm the one not worth talking to. <sigh...>
semck83 (229 D(B))
31 May 12 UTC
I'm not backtracking, krellin. I said in my very first post that it was important to strive to follow Christ. It's just that it's subtle and you can't come at it with a piledriver. Want a demonstration that it's subtle? Read I John 1 - 2. I'll paste in relevant part:

"If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. 3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected."

Now, in verse 8, we see that we are liars if we say we don't sin. In verse 4, we see that we're liars if we don't follow His commandments. Assuming that the writer considers it sin not to follow His commandments (a fair assumption, I'm sure you'd agree), what we have here is a simple contradiction. So, the writer of I John must be a simpleminded dolt, right?

OR maybe he's pointing to some increased subtlety. Maybe the several alternationg repetitions are meant to suggest a balance, and there is truth in both halves that is not obtained by simply reading into every sentence the maximum load that the words will bear, with no thought for the context.

Anyway, take care.
Mujus (1495 D(B))
31 May 12 UTC
Krellin, don't let your sinful nature keep you away from God. He has a plan for that--the big plan, salvation!!

Paul wrote about this exact point in Romans 7.

No Longer Bound to the Law
1 Now, dear brothers and sisters [fn1] —you who are familiar with the law—don’t you know that the law applies only while a person is living? 2 For example, when a woman marries, the law binds her to her husband as long as he is alive. But if he dies, the laws of marriage no longer apply to her. 3 So while her husband is alive, she would be committing adultery if she married another man. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law and does not commit adultery when she remarries.
4 So, my dear brothers and sisters, this is the point: You died to the power of the law when you died with Christ. And now you are united with the one who was raised from the dead. As a result, we can produce a harvest of good deeds for God. 5 When we were controlled by our old nature, [fn2] sinful desires were at work within us, and the law aroused these evil desires that produced a harvest of sinful deeds, resulting in death. 6 But now we have been released from the law, for we died to it and are no longer captive to its power. Now we can serve God, not in the old way of obeying the letter of the law, but in the new way of living in the Spirit.
God’s Law Reveals Our Sin
7 Well then, am I suggesting that the law of God is sinful? Of course not! In fact, it was the law that showed me my sin. I would never have known that coveting is wrong if the law had not said, “You must not covet.” [fn3] 8 But sin used this command to arouse all kinds of covetous desires within me! If there were no law, sin would not have that power. 9 At one time I lived without understanding the law. But when I learned the command not to covet, for instance, the power of sin came to life, 10 and I died. So I discovered that the law’s commands, which were supposed to bring life, brought spiritual death instead. 11 Sin took advantage of those commands and deceived me; it used the commands to kill me. 12 But still, the law itself is holy, and its commands are holy and right and good.
13 But how can that be? Did the law, which is good, cause my death? Of course not! Sin used what was good to bring about my condemnation to death. So we can see how terrible sin really is. It uses God’s good commands for its own evil purposes.
Struggling with Sin
14 So the trouble is not with the law, for it is spiritual and good. The trouble is with me, for I am all too human, a slave to sin. 15 I don’t really understand myself, for I want to do what is right, but I don’t do it. Instead, I do what I hate. 16 But if I know that what I am doing is wrong, this shows that I agree that the law is good. 17 So I am not the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it.
18 And I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. [fn4] I want to do what is right, but I can’t. 19 I want to do what is good, but I don’t. I don’t want to do what is wrong, but I do it anyway. 20 But if I do what I don’t want to do, I am not really the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it.
21 I have discovered this principle of life—that when I want to do what is right, I inevitably do what is wrong. 22 I love God’s law with all my heart. 23 But there is another power [fn5] within me that is at war with my mind. This power makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me. 24 Oh, what a miserable person I am! Who will free me from this life that is dominated by sin and death? 25 Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God’s law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin.

Footnotes:
7:1 Greek brothers; also in 7:4.
7:5 Greek When we were in the flesh.
7:7 Exod 20:17; Deut 5:21.
7:18 Greek my flesh; also in 7:25.
7:23 Greek law; also in 7:23b.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Rom&c=7&t=NLTP&x=10&y=7
Mujus (1495 D(B))
31 May 12 UTC
Here's the part on struggling with sin:
14 So the trouble is not with the law, for it is spiritual and good. The trouble is with me, for I am all too human, a slave to sin. 15 I don’t really understand myself, for I want to do what is right, but I don’t do it. Instead, I do what I hate. 16 But if I know that what I am doing is wrong, this shows that I agree that the law is good. 17 So I am not the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it.
18 And I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. [fn4] I want to do what is right, but I can’t. 19 I want to do what is good, but I don’t. I don’t want to do what is wrong, but I do it anyway. 20 But if I do what I don’t want to do, I am not really the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it.
21 I have discovered this principle of life—that when I want to do what is right, I inevitably do what is wrong. 22 I love God’s law with all my heart. 23 But there is another power [fn5] within me that is at war with my mind. This power makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me. 24 Oh, what a miserable person I am! Who will free me from this life that is dominated by sin and death? 25 Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God’s law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin.
Mujus (1495 D(B))
31 May 12 UTC
Got any more questions?
Sandgoose (0 DX)
31 May 12 UTC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsymZCFzuJY&feature=related
Mujus (1495 D(B))
31 May 12 UTC
Here's a link to a musical Youtube presentation of (some of) the Names of God. YHWH has been anglicized in some of them to Jehovah.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5-6gwssX0Y&feature=related
NigeeBaby (100 D(G))
07 Jun 12 UTC
Mujus
Were there dinosaurs on the Ark?
Mujus (1495 D(B))
07 Jun 12 UTC
Nigee, since you ask if there were dinosaurs on the ark, why don't you read that part of Genesis so that we can discuss it like reasoning adults. :-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VM5XvvXUBeo

No dinosaurs but the unicorns barely missed it. Shel Silverstein FTW.

does anyone know what FTW means, am I using it appropriately there?
I love Silverstein, sorry.
frostyigloos (146 D)
07 Jun 12 UTC
Ummm he kinda allows everything to happen, he doesn't afraid of anything.
0/10 OP, easy
Mujus (1495 D(B))
07 Jun 12 UTC
Unicorns I love them, Unicorns I love them....
Tolstoy (1962 D)
07 Jun 12 UTC
FTW="For The Win". Yes, you are using it appropriately.
Thanks :-)


145 replies
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
06 Jun 12 UTC
Buying a Truck
So, I'm thinking of buying a truck with my parents to help them with yard work. It will mostly be for picking up mulch and trees, bringing the lawnmowers for maintenance, and I'd like to use it to plow their driveway. I'm thinking a Ford Ranger from '95-'00. Thoughts?
51 replies
Open
NKcell (0 DX)
07 Jun 12 UTC
Pausing a game
Hey, the game I'm in ( gameID=87777 ) has an austria leaving until sunday...everyone hit pause except turkey, who has one SC left and is taking advantage of the situation. Any way we can force pause this game?
22 replies
Open
dave bishop (4694 D)
05 Jun 12 UTC
Diplomacy App?
See below.
26 replies
Open
SpeakerToAliens (147 D(S))
07 Jun 12 UTC
What's the record for unclaimed neutral SCs?
In 2 different games:-
Greece still neutral in autumn 03.
Tunis still neutral in spring 05.
9 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
06 Jun 12 UTC
Ray Bradbury Dies
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/science-fiction-author-ray-bradbury-dies-144137431.html
27 replies
Open
Crazy Anglican (1100 D)
06 Jun 12 UTC
Vote only : Please like the first quote in this thread if...
You believe in some sort of God or higher power. You do not have to attend church or consider yourself part of any particular religion.
22 replies
Open
Stressedlines (1559 D)
07 Jun 12 UTC
LIve WTA GB 26
gameID=90953 Actually an interesting game, with only one CD late by Germany.

Otherwise, well played, and I was not sure things would ever unlock in the south.
2 replies
Open
Ethanol (1780 D)
05 Jun 12 UTC
Looking for sitter
Hi there.
I've to go on a buisness trip next 1.5 week were i will not be able to access to the internet and check Diplomacy.
Would there be a possibility to find someone take care on my few games.
8 replies
Open
Dernwine (370 D)
07 Jun 12 UTC
Game Babysitter needed
I'm going away with unreliable internet access for a few weeks and need someone to baby sit my account for me if possible...
1 reply
Open
Thucydides (864 D(B))
06 Jun 12 UTC
Strong Persia position open
The other players need a replacement as the last guy was MIA for a while, anyone want to help them out? They've been very patient. gameID=89404
3 replies
Open
NigeeBaby (100 D(G))
07 Jun 12 UTC
gameID=90882 EOG - Play Hard & Ready Up You Spas
Any chance of an EOG here from Germany & England .& Italy......
0 replies
Open
dubmdell (556 D)
07 Jun 12 UTC
If a mod could check the email regarding a pause
Within the next three hours. Thanks.
0 replies
Open
DiploMerlin (245 D)
07 Jun 12 UTC
Cutting off support from countries with two coasts
Does a single attack from a fleet on a two coast country cut off support from either coast?
3 replies
Open
Mujus (1495 D(B))
07 Jun 12 UTC
Debate on Debate Threads
This is a new thread where people can debate how the debate threads should be run. Whenever anyone feels like going meta, here's the venue. :-0
5 replies
Open
dubmdell (556 D)
06 Jun 12 UTC
Could a mod check the email?
A matter of small importance, if you could take a moment. Thank you.
2 replies
Open
EmperorMaximus (551 D)
06 Jun 12 UTC
Slow Game
See inside
9 replies
Open
Crazy Anglican (1100 D)
06 Jun 12 UTC
Vote only: Like the first post in this thread if..
You consider yourself to be an atheist or agnostic.
9 replies
Open
Celticfox (100 D(B))
05 Jun 12 UTC
Marvel vs DC
Taking this from the Great Debate thread. So who do you guys like better? Any match ups you'd like to discuss or what not. I'm personally a Marvel fan because I feel they use more shades of grey in their writing and plotlines.
64 replies
Open
King Atom (100 D)
06 Jun 12 UTC
School's Out...
...As of Friday. Which means I'll be free to be annoyed by all you crazy people.

Anyways, here's a game: gameID=90916
0 replies
Open
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