Crap. Missed that there was a second page, so I probably stepped in it.

In any case, I don't get why people are on Babak's case for trying to protect the integrity of a game.

Alderian you twat. Do you read a whole forum thread before responding or do you just find the one post you want to attack and forget all the one's in between? We're done. Everyone's on the same page. Go home. There's no one here that still wants to fight.

*raises hand*

Nail on the head.
Except no one was jumping on Babak or Sarg, they were jumping on Moderators and understandably.

And now I'm jumping on Babak. He fucking metagamed! He used the pause function and got the mods to force said pause. He is a cheat and I'll never fucking play with him again. Babak=fucking metagamer! And he has the3 fucking mods in his pocket! Fucking asswipe mods!

@Alderian - IT WASN'T BABAK'S PLACE TO FORCE A FUCKING PAUSE!

Sorry all that I left at a critical juncture - I thought all was resolved and I had some guests. Before I go to well-needed sleep, I see there are quite a few comments and misunderstandings that should be cleared up.

First. Dear Sarg. I'm personally glad you are back and that you are not gone as I and others feared. You deserve a full explanation and if you take the time to read all of the 'global' tab (which anyone can read), read this entire thread, and read the comments I posted in other related threads to this, you'll see exactly how things played out.

Second, you deserve an explanation of my thinking and attempts at resolving what seemed like an issue. If you still have questions after this, feel free to PM me, email me, or ask me here, whatever you need to get a complete answer.

here goes...

with about 3:00 hours to go before the Fall 2001 deadline, I noticed you had no orders in, I asked you in-game then posted a message to global:

07:22 PM (To: Global, from you) - [You]:Will Sarg be NMRing? I know he was talking on the forum about leaving the site... but I did not expect him to NMR in a game like this. That would be quite disappointing =(
07:21 PM (To: China, from you) - [You]:Sarg... you there? please don't NMR.

To which roka responded:

07:29 PM (To: Global, from Near-East) - [Near-East]:Can you link a threadid, I missed that one.

I responded back:

07:39 PM (To: Global, from you) - [You]:He was not explicit about it. He was musing.

then I wrote:

07:41 PM (To: Global, from you) - [You]:He's logged into this game several times during the past 45 hours, so its not a matter of him being MIA. I just hope he's ok personally.

Meanwhile, he and I had a conversation where he made the point that sometimes players NMR so such is life. I went back and re-read your (Sarg's) messages back to me from Monday and thought that maybe you had decided to leave the site after all. (one of the first messages in this thread recounts our conversation from Monday, I wont repaste it here again).


Then I got this message from jmo that set the alarm bells off:

07:49 PM (To: You, from India) - [India]:I'll reply to those messages later, but I just wanted to let you know now that Sarg messaged me this turn that he was considering taking a break from the site and that he'd only spoken of it to myself and you. I thought I had manged to change his mind and we'd worked out some moves for this turn, but he may have decided to leave after all.


Having just re-read your Monday in-game messages to me stating a desire to leave and find a replacement, and having seen jmo's message I panicked and thought that maybe, just maybe you were hoping to get back at me. I did. I thought you might be intentionally trying to hurt the top-100 game to get back at your perceived sense about the Conversationist games - specially since you had posted in the global and logged in at 2pm (EST) and that you did not have a track record of NMRing. So I thought you might be intentionally NMRing this game. Here is what I wrote this next on the Global.

Please read this carefully...

08:04 PM (To: Global, from you) - [You]:I hate to say this - but I have reason to believe Sarg may be intentionally NMRing to make a 'point'. I have verification from one other source that he may be trying to NMR.

I've asked the Mods for a short forced pause until we either hear from Sarg or we get another player from the waitlist to take his spot.

At this piont, I do not want to pint a finger of accusation, but given conversations that occurred on the forum and private messages in this game (which I will share if need be), I'm making an executive decision to ask for a forced pause.

Apologies and I hope this does not set a precedence... I have a 'feeling' that Sarg may be doing this to make a point to ME personally and it would be a shame to have people's games ruined or affected due to some personal relationship issues. =(

I apologize in advance and will explain more later.





So Sarg. As you can clearly see from above (available in the global tab of the game that anyone can see) I clearly state I have a personal 'feeling'. That I asked the mods for a forced pause (I thought the available evidence warranted it). I still held out hope we'd hear back from you and that absent that, we'd find a replacement so that a critical juncture in the game, one of the biggest powers did not NMR. And most of all, I felt guilty that you might be taking a spiteful action directed at ME that would affect 15 other players rather than JUST me.



Here is my email to the mods:

In the world dip top-100 game: http://www.webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=73678

One player is missing with 2 hours to go to the deadline.

The reason this MAY be significant is the following set of messages. China is Sargmacher and claims he plans on leaving but then does not follow up.
... copy/paste back and forth between me and Sarg from Monday

Furthermore - another player sent me to following message just now:
... copy/paste two messages between me and jmo about Sarg...

I'm asking for a forced pause for a few hours. I have a replacement lined up from a waitlist that can take over. If Sarg had planned to leave the site without telling anyone, just to spite the game and NMR, that would be aweful, I do not expect that from him, but he seemed quite upset from a previous thread and he may be trying to make a "point".

Please pause it.




This was a mod message associated with the pause:

08:18 PM (To: Global, from Gamemaster) - (yebellz): The game has been paused. The NMR from Sarg seemed to be eminent. He might be planning to CD from this game. He actually asked me a day ago to replace him, but I had to turn him down due to lack of time.

Babak mentioned that he had a replacement lined up. Let us know if you need any assistance with getting that taken care of or if there is any trouble getting things unpaused.




Here are the next 10-15 minutes of conversation from the Global tab. read from bottom up:



08:50 PM (To: Global, from you) - [You]:Dear friends - a fuller explanation has been given in the forum due to the very fair and legitimate questions raised. The combination of evidence suggests that Sarg genuinely wanted to find a replacement as early as Monday at 8pm. I take some responsibility in not spending more time beyond the messages I wrote to him to find out his true intent and being hopeful that he would continue. I should have taken his statement to me more seriously on Monday and asked for a forced pause/forced CD/replacement at that point, but given his message in global yesterday morning (Tue 11am) I was left with the impression he would continue.

please read this thread linked below for a much fuller explanation of the evidence supporting the idea that he did want to be replaced and intended to leave. It was not nefarious as I feared, he genuinely wanted to leave and did ask me, a mod, and a 3rd player that he wanted to be replaced.

http://www.webdiplomacy.net/forum.php?newsendtothread=804675

08:37 PM (To: You, from Near-East) - [Near-East]:Okay, I'm still reading the thread you linked, asap I read you

08:36 PM (To: Global, from Oz) - [Oz]:Could a replacement be fair to China or China's neighbours? We've spent plenty of time developing relationships with Sarg and to have him replaced now means we'd have to start all over. This would unfairly benefit every other nation over us.

I understand that some might complain that a Chinese NMR would be unfair/unbalanced as well. Perhaps. I suppose if you really want to be "fair," might as well cancel the game.

But I do believe that forcing Sarg out of the game without allowing him to at least choose whether or not to enter moves is heavy-handed and not in the spirit of the game. You may have your reasons for suspecting Sarg of intentionally trying to hurt the game but I, for one, have some faith in Sargmacher as a player.

08:32 PM (To: Near-East, from you) - [You]:roka - check your private message.... I'm sending you several exchanges between Sarg and myself.

08:30 PM (To: Global, from you) - [You]:I am also open to taking rokakoma's point into account if players agree with him. In essence, that would be to allow the NMR (as that does occur from time to time), but then to find a replacement after this turn. I feel strongly this is not the best course of action, but will bend to the will of the majority here. Please feel free to share your own thoughts.

08:28 PM (To: Global, from you) - [You]:An update:

The mods are waiting to hear back from Sarg to confirm his intent to leave the game. An intent he has shared in an email to the mods and in messages to two players here.

I have also contacted the folks on our game-thread waitlist so hopefully we'll have a quick replacement and a seam-less integration as we did with MauDib. I thank you all in advance for your indulgence and for your patience.

08:24 PM (To: You, from Near-East) - [Near-East]:Babak, this is no offense on you, I appreciate your effort's putting this game together, handling player problem, and everything. Many of us can be greatful for you, I'm, because I enjoy this game.

Having said that, this is becoming everything, but not a game. You can't just replace peope in games, you should have anew game. All this circus destroys the essence of this game. In a gunboat maybe you can replace, but not here, not among the 'big guys'

I will definiately vote Cancel, but I'm not making my point by CD-ing, tough it happens again I will definiately. This is not what we wanted to play. Sarg is an asshole, bad for him, but noone should decide here how to handle it. Inside the game, from the second it has been started, we are on our own. Either we draw or cancel, no one should have the authoroty above us, until we play according to the rules. NO ONE!

08:21 PM (To: Global, from you) - [You]:oh. Thanks Yebellz. I guess if he already asked for a replacement, this resolves it.

Guys I'll get a replacement pronto we have several lined up.

08:20 PM (To: Global, from you) - [You]:In the end, it is in the hands of the mods to make a decision - and they should certainly consider your very valid points stated here as well as the points any other participating player raises.

08:19 PM (To: Global, from you) - [You]:rokakoma, I think you make a very valid point and it has quite a bit of legitimacy. As I explained in the forum thread (I'll link below), I would hate for 15 other players to suffer because some player wanted to settle a grudge with me (or make a meta-game point about NMRs and cancelled games) by trying to 'ruin' the game I helped put together.

That said, I still hold out hope that I'm hyperventilating over nothing and Sarg will show up to save the day by putting his orders in on time... I'd gladly take the proverbial egg on the face and apologize if that was the case. Meanwhile, on any usual occasion I would be with you rokakoma, but in this case, since I fear there is an issue external to this game but internal to webdip... and NOT an emergency or real life as you describe, I think I would be negligent not to act.

Here is the forum thread that my worst paranoid fear tells me is affecting this game unintentionally: http://www.webdiplomacy.net/forum.php?viewthread=803223#803223

I have also posted my reasons for asking for the forced pause there, but there is further evidence (dialogue logs) that may also help in understanding my fears.

08:18 PM (To: Global, from Gamemaster) - (yebellz): The game has been paused. The NMR from Sarg seemed to be eminent. He might be planning to CD from this game. He actually asked me a day ago to replace him, but I had to turn him down due to lack of time.

Babak mentioned that he had a replacement lined up. Let us know if you need any assistance with getting that taken care of or if there is any trouble getting things unpaused.

08:14 PM (To: Near-East, from you) - [You]:roka. I have taken the extreme step of requesting a forced pause. I'm not sure if the mods will respond to it.

I have also explained things on the forum on 3 threads, one asking for a replacement from the waitlist. one explaining the situation in the thread about his cancelled series that I fear may have sparked this, and one asking the mods to check their email inbox.

I hope Sarg just gets back and gets going again... but based on talking to one other player who has recently communicated with him, i felt I had to make a defensive decision.

I hope I'm wrong and have egg on my face, but I'd hate to see 15 other people suffer because Sarg has a grudge against me or something.

08:12 PM (To: Global, from Near-East) - [Near-East]:For the clean play, I strongly oppose this. I think personal life, emotions, bad hair day, all have an influence on how we play each and every game. It's part of the game even if it screws the game itself.

I'm just telling you, especially Babak, that I will also write to the mods, to do not interfere with the game. I get your point, I would hate to have a game with someone NMRing, but I think we, the players have the tool (voting) to handle NMRs.

Sorry for arguing on the global message board, but I thought it worth the answer. Being grown up includes handling problems as grown ups, and not going to daddy for help.

Still, whatever the mods or we do, I will accept it, and I do not want to make a 'point' here, just expressing my view, that I think this is not the way to handle.

So, you went to daddy (the mods) despite saying we are grown ups, eh Babak? Asswipe.

I think a bunch of us forgot to take our meds today...

So Sarg. As you can see, the entire conversation was about trying to 'save' the game from an NMR. the evidence of your comments to me and jmo, your comments in the other thread, and your PM to yebellz which I misinterpreted as being an email to the mods left me with the impression that you might have DECIDED to quit already and simply not cared if that meant you would NMR and affect the game.


YOU left that impression.

I misjudged it and for that I apologize, but I was trying to make sure the game was saved from an INTENTIONAL NMR.


I wrote a message in Lando's "Conversationist" thread saying this:

Babak Online (23614 (B))
08:11 PM
Sarg. I have thus far held you in the highest esteem and respected you tremendously. I do hope to continue to hold you in the same high esteem.

Please confirm that you are not intentionally NMRing in the World-Top 100 game to "spite" me or to prove some sort of 'point' about canceling games etc.

I would not expect that from you at all, but given the messages exchanged between us in-game (which were respectful) and the fact that you've logged in at least twice this turn but not submitted moves, I am having uncharacteristically negative thoughts =(

If you wish to be replaced in that game, please let us know as we have replacements available. But if you are trying to 'spite' me personally, please be considerate of the other 15 players putting their time and effort into that game.

Thank you Sarg in advance for responding and disabusing me of my paranoid conspiratorial delusions! I hope. =P





In the end, the mods decided the forced pause was granted incorrectly and reversed themselves. They then unpaused the game. You came back and instead of reading what had occurred, flew off the handle.

As of now, I'm still unclear if you are asking to be removed from the site the way PE was or if you are going to stay and play the game you committed to playing?

Draugnar - what the FUCK is your problem??? YES I went to the mods.

I asked in very polite language (the email is pasted above) that given the exchanges that existed with Sarg there was a legitimate concern on my part that he might have chosen to leave the site altogether and his NMR would detrimentally affect the game. I asked if it was within their right to pause the game so a replacement could be found for Sarg.

What is the capital crime in asking for that? I didn't force them to do it. I didn't beg them to pause it. I ASKED and provided EVIDENCE of what I feared was a player who had requested to be replaced. One mod, based partially on a private PM he received from Sarg which corroborated my evidence, paused the game. Other mods then discussed it and as a group over-ruled the initial decision and the game was un-paused within the span of less than an hour.

So what the HELL are you talking about????

You had no *right* to ask for a force pause. You metagamed when you did so. You are a fucking cheat and they won't punish you for that metagaming!

So now they are going to be forced to punish me cause I will hound you until they punish one of us.

This forum thread was locked due to: Discussion of an ongoing game; disrupting an ongoing game.