Replying to your earlier post on the current government of Vietnam: I don't think that this is very relevant to the point I was trying to make. Regardless of how unsuccessful the communist government of post-war Vietnam has been the Vietnam war was still a poor strategic decision. The war did not bring about any favorable results which might justify its cost. I suppose a better example of the point I'm trying to make is the Klu Klux Klan. If I used the same argument you are using against Europe I could say that the acts of the Klu Klux Klan prove that the United States is a hotbed of racial persecution and intolerance. It's pretty obvious that this isolated case cannot support such general conclusions. In the same way, I feel that it isn't acceptable to declare Europe "inept" or inferior based on the actions of Nazi Germany or the unsatisfactory resolution of the Bosnian Genocide.

This is obviously using some new definition of the word "excellent" that I had not previously been aware of...

You do talk a lot of tosh at times, Tettle. Obama has a better understanding than most of what the American people are really like. It is impossible to become the President if you don't.

There is some truth in what you say when applied to the relationship of foriegners to Americans though. The ideals of America are pumped to the rest of the world via a combination of Holywood and impressive political speeches before election time. The reality that follows often disappoints. To those of this world who were rather counting on the idealised version of America to make the world a better place or save them from disaster (those brave Iraqis who rose up against Saddam towards the end of the first Gulf War, perhaps, or those southern Vietnamese who risked everything to fight the Communists) the disappointment can be quite intense.

"To those of this world who were rather counting on the idealised version of America to make the world a better place or save them from disaster (those brave Iraqis who rose up against Saddam towards the end of the first Gulf War, perhaps, or those southern Vietnamese who risked everything to fight the Communists) the disappointment can be quite intense."

I understand this. I think a lot of domestic anti-Americanism is mainly an expression of solidarity with people America has kind of fucked over. I wouldn't call it anti-Americanism though, unless those people refuse to acknowledge that there is anything good about America, which is of course idiocy.

Nighlord, I don't think your question about the Vietnam War was relevant to the thread so why your sudden interest in relevance?

It is pretty funny that you compare the KKK to the Nazis, but someone trying to defend the genocidal record that Europe has visited on the world would need something that preposterous.
I'll take the KKK over the Holocaust and Bosnia anyday.
I wonder if you even consider Russia a part of Europe?

Thucy, I'd add that ignoring the horrendous record of Europe in the 20th century is the height of idiocy.

This whole Europe vs. the United States tangent isn't particularly relevant to the thread either. My point was simply picking up on something in your posts that I objected to. I find it it objectionable that you choose to lump together all European countries as "Europe" for the purposes of comparison to America. While European countries obviously do share a common history do a certain degree there are many historical, ethnic, and cultural differences between European states. The way you say things makes it sound like the people of Poland and the Nazis were equally guilty. It doesn't say much for your historical insight...

Nightlord, I'm sorry you are embarrassed and frustrated, but that is what happens to people who try to defend Europe. I do appreciate the inept way you tried to dismiss the idea of "Europe."

As far as history I think I forgot more about history than you know.

I'm frustrated because of posts like those. Your idea of carrying out a logical argument seems to consist of insulting your opponent until they are too irritated to continue. I hope that you are at least aware of this problem of yours, even if you refuse to correct it. That's really all I have left to say to you. Goodbye.

Nighlord, logic is something you are completely unacquainted with.
You say my point is irrelevant, and when I point out yours is "I'm insulting."
You say I don't have any historical insight and when I reply I've forgotten more about history than you know "I'm insulting."

At least you can admit your frustration. Good luck to you in life.

And the US has been some sort of utopia without racism, sexism, prejudice and persecution. If only those damn communists and anarchists had shut up, this country would be paradise.

It is quite funny you still think Obama is a communist.

"Nightlord, would you call the Hanoi government a step forward for Vietnam in the last quarter century?"

Unquestionably yes. Not even an imperial propagandist like TC can deny that Vietnam, despite the unprovoked aggression heaped upon it by the US and its allies, has done tremendously under the Hanoi government.

1986-1991: 4.5% GDP growth, with only 2% population growth; Tier II (industry) grew by 5.7%; Tier I (Agriculture) by 2.7%.
1992-1996: 8.9% GDP growth; again population growth at around 2%. Industry grew by 13.9%; Agriculture by 4.8%; inflation was greatly reduced - > from 260% to 10%.

GDP per capita in 1996 was 1.6 times higher than 1985.
Impoverished households went from 28% to 19.3%

The rates of growth are even more impressive in the 2000s until the great economic. crisis of 2008, clicking at about 8% per year on average. It's still been growing at about 6% in the last several years despite the crisis. GDP per capita has doubled within a decade.

People should also really reconsider their habit of making the Bosnian Muslims the innocent victim in the wars of the 1990s. Also, the US and Europe jointly share blame for that crisis, although Germany more so, for encouraging both separatism and recalcitrance when it came to a compromise that would have avoided war. See: Cutliero plan and Zimmerman's intervention to get the jihadist Izetbegovic to withdraw at the last minute.

Yeah it's really not legit to compare countries when you're talking about moral behavior.

If you behavior is immoral, it's just immoral. Doesn't matter if someone else is *even* worse. You're still a dick if you're a dick. Meaning Europe's record is irrelevant to the guy who got fucked over the US of A.

It is really inconvenient when you are European trying to preach about morality to America with the Stalin, Hitler, Musslolini, Franco, the Holocaust, and Bosnia staring you in the face and making you look like a total hypocrite.

Right, Pinochet apologists on the other hand have total clearance to engage in that sort of thing.

It is really inconvenient when you are North American trying to preach about morality to Europe with the Obama, ridiculous tax rates, choked private sector, indefensible communism, and big government statist corruption staring you in the face and making you look like a total hypocrite... and a total tool.

lets hear it for tettleton, the biggest tool ever!

(we dont have to tell him that pull pruners are rarely used)