"you wouldnt throw out the bill of right to protect you from car accidents (42,636 people killed in america alone), but its ok to do it if its terrorists (20,000 est. people killed worldwide)?"

Actually, there is a huge stink every time another state passes a seat belt law, people having to give up their rights to not wear a seat belt. And the requisite interview on TV with the person who says they want to be thrown clear of the accident, not belted into their car.

Yet we passed those laws anyway.

@Jamiet99uk - "Terrorism I can cope with. Being arrested for thought-crime by a police state, I can't."

Agreed.

I'm with Sic on this one too. The fact that Obama is even considering this is scary enough. Apparently Bush was right...it IS just a goddamn piece of paper!

Also, Invictus "I see nothing wrong with the government genuinely protecting us from terrorism."

genuinely? LOL...right. If they GENUINELY wanted to protect us, they would do so without "considering" violating the law of the land called the Constitution of the United States of America.

The war on terrorism has nothing to do with the number of people who die from peanut allegeries. But rather achieving America's strategic goals. In war time normal rights are often suspended in the short term in order to preserve them in the long term. Whether the current strategy achieves these goals is another question.

the war on terror is a manufactured war that will last forever.

stalin had a war on terror. so did mussolini. so did pinochet. etc.

What do you mean when you say "the war on terror" is manufactured? By whom and for what purpose? Why do you think it is not real? Was 911 a dream?
What relevance does Stalin et al have? Most states have had some kind of a "war on terror" at some point.

The problem is that the war on terrorism was created by the US itself for it's intrusive foreign policy over the last 60 years.

The whole world knows that the US throws its weight around to influence what it feels like influencing...including supporting brutal dictators.

They don't hate us because we are free.

We can't allow any war on terror to break the rules. If you don't prove someone is a terrorist in court then not only is their imprisonment as evil as the acts the terrorists are planning, but you are also failing to protect the country because, without investigation and trial, important information held by the terrorist cannot be discovered. Even only in terms of national security, it is better that terrorists are let free (where they can at least lead police to the cell) than imprisoned with no trial.

Well said, OMGNSO, Darwyn, DrOct and Sicarus.

Break the rules or change the rules? With regards to terrorist being held in custody, this is no different from holding an accused crimial in custody unitl trial.

@spyman but if you hold someone indefinitely without trial, I think at some point you are violating a basic tenet of our legal system.

It's very different. If you read the news story which is reference in Sicarus's original post at the start of the thread, you'll see it's about arresting people who have not committed a crime, just because you suspect they might do so in future. Also, at least the accused criminal knows he will get a trial - these alleged terrorists are not going to be put on trial, just locked up to keep them out of the way.

whats that smell?

fffffff...

fffffff....

smell it? what is that?....


...oh right, fascism

I should have looked at that closer. I think it is stupid too.

If I had a nickel for everything Sicarius saw fascism, I'd be wealthy enough to have him locked up....

LOL...good one DJ. :)

I don't disagree with him though. The signs are here.

I hardly believe that America will become a facist nation. Even so Sicarius is right in one respect which is that the War on Terror is a manufactered one. While it is true that terrorists are out there, they are located around the globe not just in Afganistan. I won't even mention Iraq becuase we had no reason to invade them at all in the first place.

I suppose im going too long into this. My point is that being in other countries will not stop terrorists it will only encourge them. About Guantanamo, Benjamin Franklin said it best, "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

I'm not saying america WILL become a fascist nation.
I'm saying that is a possibility.

and things like this dont exactly put me at ease

America is already a fascist nation. We have a strong central government which now controls all of the banks and the only major manufacturers left in the country (thanks, NAFTA!). We have 'law enforcement' authorities which routinely infiltrate and disrupt legitimate political organizations. We have more people in prison per capita than Communist China for Christ's sake. We have an Internal Revenue Service that is routinely used by politicians of both parties to harass and terrorize 'troublemakers'. We have Muslims being thrown in prison after show trials for the heinous crime of being around a secret police agent provocateur who encourages them to commit terrorist acts and promises to provide them with explosives, while the 9-11 commission pointedly refused to investigate who provided the funding for the attacks that killed 3,000 of my fellow Americans. We have wars in Iraq and Afghanistan that have killed tens or hundreds of thousands of people (I don't know, since my government refuses to keep count!) to stop Saddam Hussein from using weapons of mass destruction... er... I mean, stop him from terrorizing the Iraqi people. Americans elected Democrats to stop this madness in 2006, only to find that like some horror movie the Democrats are also 'one of them'. About 2,000 Americans drowned to death in New Orleans due to government incompetence and inattention after Hurricane Katrina, but I have yet to hear the corporate/state media report this number; only one person lost their job over this (an event that killed almost 70% as many people as the 9-11 attacks and was entirely preventable - and that only after massive public outrage). In the meantime, veterans of the American armed services are gunned down by police officers with impunity:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIedW4HG5gE

(This example - one among many, and one among hordes when you add in non-veterans - happened about two miles from my house. The hero who took this video was kidnapped by the friends of the officer who gunned down the unarmed Iraq war veteran and shipped from California to Florida to face charges on a non-existent 20+ year old misdemeanor - a blatant case of witness intimidation which has yet to be investigated to my knowledge, let alone prosecuted)

This country is rotten to the core. It may've been a great place to live once, but I don't see it now. Fascism? You bet your ass. I don't know how anyone can call this a 'free' country, when you can't even flush your toilet without some government agency getting involved.

Wake up, people. This *is* a fascist country, and we Americans are not free. If George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and Patrick Henry were alive right now they'd be grabbing their illegal military-style assault weapons and gunning down the nearest police officer or federal agent they could find; they did as much for far lesser grievances in their own time.

wow finally someone who knows whats up.

the 10 steps necessary for a Fascistic group (or government) to destroy the democratic character of a nation-state and subvert the social/political liberty previously exercised by its citizens:

1. Invoke a terrifying internal and external enemy.
2. Create secret prisons where torture takes place.
3. Develop a thug caste or paramilitary force not answerable to citizens.
4. Set up an internal surveillance system.
5. Harass citizens' groups.
6. Engage in arbitrary detention and release.
7. Target key individuals.
8. Control the press.
9. Treat all political dissidents as traitors.
10. Suspend the rule of law.

this si from naomi wolfs "The End of America: A Letter of Warning to a Young Patriot"
a good book to read if americas accelerating fascism is of any interest to you. (and it should be, unless of course you're a fascist)

It's really scary how right Tolstoy is...

police state anyone?
how about surveillance state?

this could go on...

it is amazing how the two ends of the political spectrum meet... the far-left anarchist and the far-right anti-state libertarian converge here - on phpdip ;)

seriously though - I think its telling that our conservative friends in this thread have quieted down... in the end - torture, the surveillance state, unlimited detention, rendition and the rest will be judged by these same American people as being an affront to our values... (maybe I'm being optimistic, but history has shown that one thing we Americans do well is correct a course of action and to advance the cause of humanity every 2 generations or so)


I guess what I'm trying to say to he Tolstoys and Scicarius's among us is... keep vigilant... you are right to be concerned and you are right to shout from the rooftops... it is indeed a shame that people are not out in the streets clamoring for real justice for the heads of Darth Cheney and W on pikes... but maybe that itself is a sign that humanity has advanced ;)

my point really is that its not all bleak... there are forces for good even within the system and within the power elite... and that Democratic aspects of THIS government and THIS society that we live in, do provide us with tools to actually affect change... it is always slow - but positive change will come to pass.

sorry if no one understood what I was trying to say - but its late and I should be getting to bed... but I wanted to say thank you Sicarius and to all the rest who do watch vigilantly and light the beacon of injustice as a warning to wake the rest of us from our slumber.

libertarianism is anarchism for rich people.

thanks babak

i like that quote

if libertarians are nudists, then anarchists are naked people