It's a publicity stunt and nothing more. The government can just use eminent domain to buy back the land.

Oh so big government land seizure.

Nothing says Liberty like the Government seizing lands from individuals and businesses

I understand that you guys don't like xenophobia... but do you LIKE illegal immigration? 80% of women are raped while not he journey trying to get across our border

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/12/central-america-migrants-rape_n_5806972.html

I understand you want people to get here... but WHY illegally??? Why is a wall BAD. what is it doing, that any other western civilized democracy isn't? These countries all have strict immigration rules. Germany, Spain, France, Britain, all will deport you if you come in illegally. why is the USA some special exception what's wrong with you people?

If you want to loosen immigration laws I understand that, if you want to make it legal, I understand that. but CHANGE THE LAW, CHANGE THE SYSTEM, don't just fully open up the border. goddamn.

@brainbomb

so you admit private ownership of land is an unalienable right? because if so I will bookmark this and quote you on this if you ever go back on it

“Why is a wall BAD”

How the mighty have fallen.

In the original foundations of the constitution Life Liberty and Property were inalienable human rights. They ultimately dismissed property, much to the chagrin of the benefit of our society.

Of course land is a right. The government can have some but if you value the rights of a purchaser to do what they want with land thats supposed to be the greatest unbreakable promise of capitalism in sum.

Point is, just like in Nebraska, this Keystone Pipeline has been very unpoular even among liberterians, even among rural farners in nebraska. It takes ranch land and farm land using unlawful eminent domian bullying to force farners to have dirty filthy ugly leaky pipelines on their property. Fuck that.

I hope people literally sabotage and blow up the developments if they actually start building that shit. This is why we need eco terrorism that is nonviolent to humans but thwarts and bankrupts evil oil and energy companies.

I would also support eco terrorist attacks on attempts to build the wall. Burning construction sites, destroying vehicles. Whatever it takes

I think the word you meant was *inalienable*

I bought two orders as Christmas presents before they sold out.

@TrPrado

I'm fine with near free-immigration as long as you don't pose a national security risk. I also would like to tear down a lot of the social welfare programs (open immigration and socialized welfare can't coexist) but the basic idea of a wall, I'm only opposed to on economic grounds. I don't think it's effective enough in its purpose.

that said, I do want some control over who comes into the country.

also @brainbomb

if someone buys land that later is found to sit on a bunch of radioactive uranium, we'd seize the land. eminent domain I dislike, but there are some exceptions, and I definitely think the borders of a nation should not be held in private use.

if these guys are really that stingy, then Trump can just build a wall AROUND their land and box them in. nothing illegal about that.

@brainbomb

I'm also very glad you're pro individual property rights. I'm 100% bookmarking this thread for future reference

I am not against a common-sense immigration system. I am not against deportation. I am against spending billions of tax-payer dollars on an ineffectual wall that will have little impact on the rate of immigration. The situation would be far more tenable and agreeable if we devoted the funds to developing a faster legal-immigration process as well as using technology to monitor our border.

If the process for legal immigration was simpler and faster people wouldn’t feel pressured to cross illegally. Right now the risk/reward that these people are making is clearly pushing them to cross.

We could devote resources to helping expel the cartel from Mexico. Help embolden Mexican police agencies, and guide the Mexican government toward a safer democracy. Mexico itself could become our wall. If Central American immigrants have to pass through a stable Mexican democracy and economy they would likely stop in Mexico instead of continuing into the US.

This is why NAFTA is so important, weakening Mexico only sends more immigrants our way.

Im from Nebraska, we have some of the highest property taxes in America because everyone living in the two cities pays all the taxes for the rest of the states roads and schools. Its a big fuckin state almost 500 miles across. There is nothing on the western side that contributes to revenue. As a result property taxes are high.

That being said I will someday have my parents house. Its not in the best shape. Its got a big lovely yard. It would be hard to ever think of selling it. Its mostly sentimental value now as most of my neighbors I grew up with all moved away one by one. Im not as wild about the newer people, theyre all kinda stereotypical middle class boring ppl.

If anyone came along and claimed eminent domain on our house I would die before lettting them have it. Government, state, or anyone.

If you dont pay your bills, if you commit a felony or do something terrible, I think those are fair game scenarios for seizure of property. But not for some stupid fucking pipeline that is debateable as to if it even helps your country. And certainly not on some half assed border wall that is proven to do little to reduce illegal immigration in the first place.

TLDR it is not worth sacrificing peoples liberty to provide some vague existential level of security. We did this with the patriot act and look at how much weve lost of our privacy. If we allow land seizures to build frivilous load blowing job creations on needless costly projects, we lose more and more of what makes america great. The right to pursue and own property is as american as it gets.

"Germany, Spain, France, Britain, all will deport you if you come in illegally."
Actually, once you step foot on Spanish soil* you automatically benefit from asylum protection and other benefits. Detention facilities do exist and people can get deported, but it's much better than in the States. I can't speak for the others.

*That is, excluding a a narrow strip between two fences along the borders of Ceuta and Melilla and minuscule uninhabited islands near the Moroccan coast. Human rights groups have been up in arms for years about these exceptions.

If you think the US border is bad, try looking up how many Moroccans drown or freeze to death per year trying to swim the gibraltar to spain per year.

Perhaps we should just turn the rio grande into a massive inland sea!!

brainbomb: You may want to check your terminology, ha ha. "swim the gibraltar to spain"

But in reality, it's not Moroccans who die in the Strait. It's by and large Sub-Saharan Africans. Traffickers use watercraft that are barely seaworthy, sometimes even inflatable swimming pool boats.

"How the mighty have fallen."

Were you under the impression that JamesYanik was mighty? The dude is in the same pit in this thread that he's been in for years.

the pit and the pendulum. now that was a classic horror movie!

Boner Jams! Boner Jams! Boner Jams! Boner Jams! Boner Jams! Boner Jams!

because bb is too wrapped up in property rights and eco terrorisim to have fun anymore

I just realized maybe Yanik thinks I truly support communist land seizures and revocation of peoples property.

of course you do. Boner Jams! Boner Jams! Boner Jams!

The refugees drowning is also bullshit. There is video of them sinking their own ship when they see the Italian coastguard.

Brilliant piece of marketing from Cards Against Humanity. Brand awareness up, sales up, and with the donations they asked for regarding the border wall shenanigans it may well not have cost them a penny! If I had a hat I would doff it.

brain:

Don’t worry, I was always able to tell the troll from the man.

Texas had years of lawsuits from Bush and his failed wall. The government undervalued the land they were seizing. I doubt Trump will be better since there is now a lawsuit for not defining where the wall will go, how it will be built, and no proper funding.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/13/politics/border-wall-eminent-domain/index.html

Then there was where they did build the wall with some US citizens finding they were now on the Mexico side of the wall to ease construction. One family watched there home and barn burn down because the fire department couldn't get the Bush built gate open to reach a US property on the Mexican side.

leon1122: You're sick. Traffickers risk the lives of refugees; that doesn't make the deaths of refugees 'bullshit'. Quite the opposite. The way refugees are treated on their journey makes their plight all the more real.

www.cnn.com/2017/11/14/africa/libya-migrant-auctions/index.html

They're just faking being sold into slavery for media attention.

JECE, I'm so glad you're willing to look at the facts in a rational manner. They risk their own lives and almost certainly are in on the plan to sink the ship. The Europeans are being played for fools.

leon1122: That's nutty. You know the Europeans pick refugees up whether or not the 'boats' have been sabotaged, right? Sabotaging the boats only gives the trafficker more time to make a getaway. The traffickers don't want to get caught. It only endangers the refugees.

May I ask where you got your oh-so-rational analysis from?

https://youtu.be/qdyerV8bfeA

leon1122: So your source is a small, virulently anti-refugee YouTube Channel from Idaho (very close to the events at hand) that in turn sources a YouTube account that no longer exists. Got it.

I didn't bother watching the video, but the description is just as sick as you are. Piracy in the Mediterranean? "[T]he immigrants would drag them down" to their death as if the immigrants were zombies or something? Australia doesn't have any illegal immigration? A snarky comment that the refugees should have learned Italian, as if their final destination were likely Italy instead of Germany (and the EU refugee program doesn't distribute the refugees across several countries)? Sub-Saharan Africans crossing the Mediterranean claim to be Syrian? None of the description makes any sense.

@JECE

Are you suggesting that the footage is fake? It seems pretty legitimate to me. Perhaps watching it rather than dismissing it because you don't like who put it on YouTube would have made more sense.


I'm not sure what you're getting outraged by. The bit about the use of Italian is a description of what's happening rather than anything snarky. The part that talks about the risks of trying to rescue panicking men via rappelling individuals down is perfectly valid, and I have no idea where you get that zombie nonsense from. As far as fears of piracy go, I don't see why that should be surprising. They are desperate men willing to break the law, and some of them will likely be dangerous. The fear is legitimate, although you'd like to think the desire to uphold maritime law and help your fellow man would overcome it.

JECE is right. Australia does have a problem with both refugees and "illegal immigrants". Unfortunately the whole issue has been so politicised that our policies are inconsistent. We do good work taking in large numbers of refugees ( per capita of our population ) via organised humanitarian processes.
We, imho, scapegoat people who try to "come by boat" & lock them up almost indefinitely in detention camps and the costs of that are huge.
What is ignored in the divisive political fight is the fact that most illegal immigrants come here by aeroplane and simply overstay their tourist or student visa..far many more than come here by boat. Plus the total numbers we have to deal with are miniscule compared to the problems facing other countries.
However there is a feeling here that some countries to our North are/were playing the transit country game at our expense.
I cannot but help thinking about the way a relatively poor nation like Uganda has responded to a flood of refugees from South Sudan and compare it to the way our policies have been influenced by the xenophobic fringe.

Is someone bumping all my threads? My god.