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A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
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Twichell (112 D)
29 Mar 17 UTC
Anybody for a World Domination IX game?
Anybody down? let me know for any takers and I'll start a game.
0 replies
Open
Hauta (1598 D (S))
28 Mar 17 UTC
If it walks like a duck Nunes involved in cover up
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably a duck. Nunes is choking off witness testimony, slow-rolling investigation, claiming to have secret evidence, making secret visits to the White House. When will the Democrats finally say that there is a cover up?

http://www.npr.org/2017/03/28/521776396/trump-supporter-or-investigator-5-problems-for-devin-nunes-and-the-trump-white-h?utm_medium=RSS&utm_campaign=us
12 replies
Open
Hauta (1598 D (S))
27 Mar 17 UTC
Obamacare Death Spiral explained
Republicans claim that increasing premiums cause ->
healthy people to leave the system, causing ->
premiums to rise for everyone else, causing ->
more healthy people to leave the system...
20 replies
Open
Ogion (5124 D)
19 Mar 17 UTC
(+1)
Another School of War?
Folks,

is it time for another School of War? It feels like it's been a while. Any volunteers?
363 replies
Open
Qualtagh (192 D)
28 Mar 17 UTC
Stalemate draws
What do you do if you're in a stalemate but one of the players refuses to draw?
7 replies
Open
Zollern (100 D)
27 Mar 17 UTC
Game progression speed
It's not possible that the game will progress without you entering your moves before the deadline right?
8 replies
Open
Tricky Rule...
Can a dislodged enemy unit still cut my support?
5 replies
Open
CommanderByron (694 D (S))
26 Mar 17 UTC
(+3)
Announcement
So I didn't realize so many wanted webdipia to return. It has galvanized me and I am committing to starting the next iteration in May. This gives me a month to finalize the game mechs and story; as well as get my licensing for my new job mostly completed. This thread is just for hype.
40 replies
Open
Fluminator (344 D)
27 Mar 17 UTC
(+1)
The alt-right have gone too far.
They're planning on boycotting Playtonic games, literally the dream team and coagulation of the most brilliant video-game designers ever. If they cause the downfall of this company, I will be a social justice warrior to the grave.
6 replies
Open
Carebear (100 D)
27 Mar 17 UTC
Non-Symmetrical Phase Lengths
I looked in the issue tracker and it does not appear that I can search the forum. Has there been discussion about different phase lengths for retreats and adjustments from orders? It seems like a great way to have good order negotiations while avoiding downtime for phases that don't need the additional time. This would allow something like 3 days orders and 1 day retreat/adjustment.
6 replies
Open
ND (680 D)
26 Mar 17 UTC
Mafia 28: JEBEDIAH'S WRATH
See Below
(Game has not started so DO NOT POST)

8 replies
Open
brainbomb (99 D)
06 Mar 17 UTC
(+2)
MAFIA 28 - SIGN UP THREAD
Sign up here for: ITEM MADNESS
257 replies
Open
pastoralan (100 D)
19 Mar 17 UTC
(+1)
Am I missing something, or do people not know how to play Diplomacy anymore?
So I'm finding a trend where some countries just don't really send press even in situations where it would really help them.
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I haven't looked too hard. Care to share what you've found?
captainmeme (472 D Mod)
25 Mar 17 UTC
I should say I tend to look for stalemate lines on the go, so the ones I've found thus far have been ones relevent to games I've been in. There are a lot more than this.

If you're looking to become uneliminatable as an eastern power (China, Turan, India, Srivijaya) then you can form a minimal stalemate line with 20 centers:

(Starts at Silla, just east of China's start, goes west and then south after reaching Ujjain)

A Sil
F YeS
A Hen & A Sic S A ChA
A Tib S A Amd
A Nep S A Kas
A Ind S A Sha
A Knj & A Ras S A Ujj
A Cho H
F Cor H
F Ser H
F Min & F Jam S F SuS

20 units

Holds 20 centers (Ser, Cho, Ujj, Knj, Ind, Kas, Var, Tib, Pag, ChA, Nan, Gua, Sil, Sai, Kam, Cah, Jam, Plm, Kal, But)

Once you start getting boardwide effort to stop a major power or alliance, you can defend many more centers using almost the same number of units:

(Starting from the Western Sea, just west of Wagadu's starting location, and stretching West to East)

F WtS H
F Tka & F Mau S F STa
A Kut & A Tah S A Ifr
A Tri S A Bar
A Ale & A Mec S A Jer
A Oma & A Yem S A Nef
F Ara-Bsr (prevent transformation to fleet, if it ever moves, move it back again next turn)
A Sha S A Man
A Amd & A Kas S A Sog
A Hen S A Yan
F YeS S A Blh

25 units

45 Centers (Tka, Awl, KuS, Nio, Wal, JeJ, Mau, Ifr, Zaw, Kan, Bar, Ale, AQa, Mak, Axu, Adu, Roh, Mal, Zim, Mah, Jer, Yem, Soc, Man, Ujj, Ind, Knj, Kas, Tib, Var, Cho, Ser, Plm, Jam, Kal, Cah, But, Kam, Pag, Gua, ChA, Nan, Yan, Sai, Sil)

If you're stalemating a single player and not an alliance, your stalemate line must control at least 55 centers to prevent the solo. There are a number of places you can extend the line forwards - the most unit efficient is probably pushing forward into 3 of the mediterreanean islands and 7 of the easily claimed centers in front of the Asian part of the previous line:

(Again starting at Western Sea, stretching west to east)

F WtS H
F Tka & F Mau S F STa
A Kut S A Ifr
F LiS S F Sic (& vice versa)
F EgS & F Cre & F Cyp S F CiS
F STy & A Jer S A Dam
A Nef S A Bag
A Bas S A Isf
A Sjs S A Kho
A Her S A Buk
A Blk & A Uyg S A Sam
A Yan S A Chn
A YeS S A Blh

30 units

Holds 55 centers (all those of the previous line + Sic, Cre, Cyp, Bag, Isf, Bas, Her, Buk, Sam, Uyg).

It's easy to see that centers like OrB could be easily added to a line like this - just as in Classic, the more centers you control, the easier it will be to form a stalemate line. This is the minimal unit east-west line that protects exactly 55 centers though (I think).

There are a fair few North-South lines too, but I've spent enough time typing these out today :D
David E. Cohen (100 D)
25 Mar 17 UTC
Stalemate lines in Known World 901. Now I am sad.

In the two variants I am working on now, I am going the extra mile, or kilometer if you swing that way, to avoid stalemates having an impact on the game. Both will have victory criteria of less than a majority of the dots. One of them should be especially. stalemate resistant. It will be a true global variant with a wraparound map, so there will be no corners. It will also feature high seas provinces (multiple fleets allowed), and be significantly less densely "dotted" than Standard, so more capacity and room for maneuver.
Condescension (343 D)
25 Mar 17 UTC
@David what happens if two players reach the victory SC threshold in the same turn?
Carebear (100 D)
25 Mar 17 UTC
@DEC - With computers, you should be able to systematically check for stalemate positions.
Adamious (560 D)
25 Mar 17 UTC
I really liked Known World, thanks DEC. Only played it once as a slow gunboat, but the neutral armies, transform feature and beautiful map made it a really fun experience (not a big fan of gunboating normally)
captainmeme (472 D Mod)
25 Mar 17 UTC
I don't think that's an easy problem for a computer, Carebear...
Carebear (100 D)
25 Mar 17 UTC
Not necessarily trivial, but I am certain work in that space was already done with the standard board. The same algorithm, with some tweaks, should be able to do other boards.
David E. Cohen (100 D)
25 Mar 17 UTC
In response to

Condescension: If Player 1 exceeds the victory criterion by a greater amount than Player 2 other, then Player 1 is the winner. If both exceed the victory criterion by an equal amount, then play continues until either one player exceeds the victory criterion by a greater amount than all the other players, or only one player has achieved the victory criterion. Note, I am not the first person to use this formula in a Dip variant.

Carebear: Not in my skillset, even if I had the desire, which I do not. I do not want to make it easier for people to "achieve" a stalemate.

Also, for Standard, all that stalemate line stuff was worked out manually, in the early days of the Hobby.

Adamious: For the transform feature, you have Kaner406 to thank. He modified my variant (he also did not implement the special Pharaonic Canal rule), so really you guys are playing a variant of a variant. :^)

Zybodia (360 D)
26 Mar 17 UTC
Presumably if such a program exists, you could also use it to check to see if any maps you are developing have stalemate lines, and if desired, eliminate them.
captainmeme (472 D Mod)
26 Mar 17 UTC
The problem with making a program like that is the number of combinations you'd have to check. I'm fairly sure it increases massively with each extra center on the board, so checking something like KW901 is far harder than Classic.
Carebear (100 D)
26 Mar 17 UTC
@DEC - What Zybodia said.

@CptM. - Yes, I understand. However, there are non-trivial techniques for approaching problems like this that reduce computational roadblocks. Knuth - The Art of Computer Programming is a great read for problems like this.
David E. Cohen (100 D)
26 Mar 17 UTC
I suppose so, but I do pretty well on Brain 1.0. Of course, there are several variant design rules of thumb that make stalemate lines more difficult to form. These include, but are not limited to:

1. Lowering Map Density. Increasing the ratio of non SC provinces to SC provinces, especially if they are usefully placed, will hinder stalemate line formation, as well as providing freedom of movement, which will generally makes for more flexible and exciting play..

2. Avoiding Geographic Bottlenecks. Impassable areas which channel movement and long thin provinces with lots of compact provinces on either side, increase the likelihood of and facillitate stalemate line formation.

3. Allowing Freedom to Build. The more freedom a player has to build, that is, moving toward a Chaos-style build rule and away from Standard (or worse) build restrictions, the more difficult it will be to form a stalemate line.

4. Lessening Victory Criteria. Stayng away from supermajority dot ownership, and indeed lowering it below a majority, while also avoiding specific SC ownership requirements or other limitations will lessen the influence of stalemates on gameplay.
captainmeme (472 D Mod)
26 Mar 17 UTC
(+1)
I'm fairly certain I could make an efficient algorithm to detect whether, given a set of 'friendly' provinces, they could all be protected by a stalemate line. It's a simple enough task given the board size...

Delete all enemy provinces that a) are not adjacent to a friendly province or b) are only connected to friendly province by a sea route and cannot be reached from an enemy HSC by fleets.
Find the border provinces (provinces bordering at least one enemy province)
For each border province b, set a variable K(b) to be equal to the number of enemy provinces adjacent to it - 1.
Delete all enemy provinces.
Delete all friendly provinces that are not either a border province or adjacent to a border province.
For each friendly province c which is not a border province and is only connected to one border province b, decrease K(b) by one and then delete c.

The problem is now:

Divide (not completely, you can have some left over) the remaining non-border provinces into disjoint sets v1, v2, v3... such that every border province can be mapped to a set which is contained entirely in its set of neighbours, and which has size equal to its k value. Additionally, the sum of the sizes of the sets must be less than or equal to the number of Supply Centers in friendly territory.

I don't know if there's an efficient way to do that, but brute forcing it shouldn't be too time consuming when we're talking about even a large Diplomacy board.

There's a few problems with this, though:

While everything that shows as 'true' as a result of this algorithm is indeed a stalemate line (with units in every border province and every province inside a V set, the ones inside a V set support holding the border province mapped to them) - not all stalemate lines will be found:

First, this algorithm doesn't take into account that, if a border province has enemy neighbour set E, it can support hold any adjacent border province where the neighbour set contains E without the cutting of support being a problem.

Second, this algorithm only covers passive stalemate lines. It misses active stalemates - lines where units are used aggressively instead of defensively. In a stalemate line, if you do not have enough units to support hold province A, you can use two units to constantly attack two different enemy units adjacent to province A in order to decrease the number of supports A must have by one. However, the two units you are using need one more adjacent unit than before (because they'll need to be protected by support moves rather than support holds).

I think this can be done with more than two units, also - with each extra 'active' unit decreasing the number of support holds needed for A by one.

I *think* if these two scenarios can be covered then you cover everything. Of course, this is with standard Diplomacy rules.

The real issue is that this is a verification algorithm. You'll have to feed it every single possible set of friendly provinces on the board - and that becomes a massive number, two to the power of the number of provinces on the board. On the smallest variant ever made (Pure, 7 provinces) this would be 2^7=128 combinations, on Classic it would be 2^75, which is insanely high (22 digits). It would grow much higher with maps like Known World.

You can't just check combinations which are a graph-cut because they miss stalemates like the Classic Turkey-England one, where the extra northern centers allow you to hold a completely unconnected area of the board.
captainmeme (472 D Mod)
26 Mar 17 UTC
I should reword that starting line...

"I'm fairly certain I could make an efficient algorithm to detect whether, given a set of 'friendly' provinces, they could all be protected by a stalemate line."

should be

"I'm fairly certain I could make an efficient algorithm to detect whether, given a set of 'friendly' provinces, they could all be protected by a stalemate line *which protects no other provinces*"
captainmeme (472 D Mod)
26 Mar 17 UTC
Actually it would be better as "Which has no friendly units outside of those provinces" rather than "which protects no other provinces". That is, it's assumed that every province not in the friendly set is occupied by an enemy unit.
captainmeme (472 D Mod)
26 Mar 17 UTC
Also @David -

I disagree with your design point #4.

Lowering the victory conditions below 50% of the Supply Centers often allows powers to solo without having to interact at all with players doing well on other parts of the board. This is a problem we often see over at vDip with WWIV, with the victor generally only 3 or 4 SCs ahead of a number of other players who had no chance to reach him in time to stop him.

Diplomacy should not be on a time-limit by default, and that is what putting a lower victory condition does to the game.
David E. Cohen (100 D)
26 Mar 17 UTC
I will agree that lowering a victory criterion is not something that should be done lightly, I am using variable, reduced victory criteria in the global variant I am working on (Dawn of the Enightenment) mainly because, unlike in most of my variants, the Powers are starting out unequal. I have certain Powers starting all the way up at 9 units, including 3 with double strength, while other Powers are starting with only three units. Also the variant is so large, it will take a VERY long time even with reduced victory criteria. Additionally, the interaction problem you mention is lessened, because this variant starts in 1701, so there are a bunch of Powers with starting dots scattered across the globe. For example, Portugal, having units in Macau and Goa, may well be communicating with Russia, having units in Irkutsk and Okhotsk, at the beginning of the game, concerning their common neighbors, India and China.


78 replies
brainbomb (99 D)
26 Mar 17 UTC
(+1)
BUG - there is a big black smooshed bug on my monitor
I've been scraping at it for weeks. Maybe a mod or someone who knows das interweb can help me. Its right on the spot where switzerland should be on my dip map. Ive tried everything. I cant see what units asshole France is putting there. His press he keeps calling me howie. Please help.
2 replies
Open
brainbomb (99 D)
25 Mar 17 UTC
Do Minotaurs have brothels?
I was curious if Minotaurs actually built the buildings they lived in or if it was slave labor. And also would Minotaurs have brothels? It seems like yes but I get confused by who the patrons would be and what rules they would have
15 replies
Open
SuperMario0727 (214 D)
24 Mar 17 UTC
Diplomacy Strategy: Theatres of War
The Diplomacy game-board can be divided into six theatres of war, each of which is based on a historical front in the Great War. These theatres are the Western Front, Eastern Front, Italian Front, Middle Eastern Front, Balkan Front, and African Front. Each of them comprise various provinces on the game-board, and recognizing them can improve overall strategy . . .
16 replies
Open
Poohbelly (456 D)
24 Mar 17 UTC
(+2)
BUG - Muted games where I'm dead, now spamming
I've muted everyone in games where I'm dead to not see their spam. In the last few days I've started getting turn information from these previously muted games. Can we please turn this off.
Thanks
10 replies
Open
nmpolo (2095 D)
25 Mar 17 UTC
@moderators Can we get a replacement?
We paused this live game http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=194645 but Russia has disappeared so is it possible to get a replacement for him?
2 replies
Open
Zollern (100 D)
25 Mar 17 UTC
Live Med-31 !! Live Med-31 !! STARTS IN 1 MIN
Live Med-31 STARTS IN 1 MIN
0 replies
Open
lalaland (100 D)
25 Mar 17 UTC
Live Game
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=194635
0 replies
Open
Hellfire Missile (90 D)
25 Mar 17 UTC
Backstabs
Why is everyone so damn hot to backstab you?
Is it because my morals need adjusting?
Is it because i'm an open target?
3 replies
Open
Sitiya (100 D)
25 Mar 17 UTC
Known World 901?
What happened to the Known World 901 map option for new games? Was it abandoned due to the games taking so long, or is it just being reworked?
2 replies
Open
orathaic (1009 D (B))
22 Mar 17 UTC
Irish Republican dies - Martin MacGuinness
"The ex-IRA leader turned politician died in Altnagelvin Hospital overnight aged 66. It is understood he had been suffering from a rare heart condition."
31 replies
Open
peterwiggin (14563 D Mod (S))
14 Mar 17 UTC
(+9)
Mod team announcement
Valis2501 has decided to step down from the mod team. Please join me in thanking him for his service to the site.
46 replies
Open
CommanderByron (694 D (S))
23 Mar 17 UTC
(+1)
Petition
Petition to have my name changed to "CommanderSmallpox"
19 replies
Open
mitomon (185 D)
24 Mar 17 UTC
Can you guys help me find a datasheet for this camera?
http://imgur.com/gallery/1K3Fg

the model number is either H498A F1G23 or F1G23 H498A. I already tried www.datasheetarchive.com but feel free to try again.
It's from a smartphone and I'm trying to repurpose it, but for that I need to know the specs.
5 replies
Open
cspieker (8632 D)
25 Mar 17 UTC
what's up with I wanna go fast too?
This game http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=194621
is on the live games tab, but when I open it, there is no "join" button. What is up with that? Is that a bug?
0 replies
Open
brainbomb (99 D)
23 Mar 17 UTC
Is America mediocre?
What factors in your opinion have made America a lousy place to live? Can it be fixed? And under the current political atmosphere will America be exceptional by 2020?
56 replies
Open
WyattS14 (30 D)
21 Mar 17 UTC
John Stuart Mill!
The purpose of this thread is just to appreciate everything that John Stuart Mill was. His amazingly useful quotes specifically.

38 replies
Open
Zollern (100 D)
23 Mar 17 UTC
what happens if two adjacent armies move into each other's spaces?
what happens if two adjacent armies move into each other's spaces? Is that a bounce or do they just move past each other?
5 replies
Open
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