For all the lines of genocide you can find in the OT there are at least 100 fold lines on justice and peace. The prophets, particularly Isaiah, ring out as true today as they did then. This was revolutionary in the ancient world and can be again in this one.

@President Eden--I guess I wasn't clear enough, next time I'll make sure to be more in depth with my answers.

As much as I'd like to keep the conversation going, I can't be here all night. It was a pleasure discussing with you gentlemen. Orathaic, hex010, and President Eden, I enjoyed hearing your thoughts. Hopefully we all learned something about how others see the world. Have a wonderful night.

"For all the lines of genocide you can find in the OT there are at least 100 fold lines on justice and peace."

Quick search of the Bible reveals that together, 'peace' and 'justice' come up about 800 times in the Bible, and often together.

Are you saying that there are only 8 genocides in the Old Testament? There were a few more than that, from my experience.

"But you have to remember that I also don't believe there's anything short about their life. You have never met a mere mortal."

Also, what about the suffering of animals? It's terrible the things we allow happen to them, and in your theology the are mere mortals, right?

800 references/verses to peace and justice, wow thanks for looking that up - I will remember that for our next debate.... If I am foolish enough to join in again.

Ora I will get onto google scholar soon I promise for that reference.

Wait, when does talking about justice and peace wipe clean the sin of genocide? For all Hitler spoke of justice and [eventual] peace, no one absolves him of guilt for the Holocaust [and rightfully]. Genocidaires often speak of justice and peace, laying the blame for their absence at the feet of their soon-to-be victims.

@ ora here you from the web rather than scholar:

The vacuum fluctuations do not have any cause (other than that their existence is mandated by the laws of physics). However, it's not correct to say that they're "events", for the reason I mentioned - they're uncertainties rather than things happening as a function of time.
AND
To address your point about energy, you are right, if you apply general relativity these vacuum fluctuations contribute an energy which will gravitate. This causes a discrepancy which has been called the vacuum catastrophe
http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/67563/is-quantum-fluctuations-a-completely-uncaused-event

IMO Aquinas still stands given that context

Well I am sure that you students of contemporary social history (the sixties actually) who had to endure so much biblical "indoctrination" in your youths will recognise this;

"I have a dream that one day every valley shall be exalted, every hill and mountain shall be made low, the rough places will be made plain, and the crooked places will be made straight, and the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together."

Or how about this?

"Let justice roll down like waters and righteousness like an ever-flowing stream."

Those of you in the US, surely have those words fed to you with your mother's milk. Thanks to our friend hex we also know that there are at least 798 more where they came from.

Seriously, given the context of their time, these were indeed remarkable words and thoughts with the power to capture and motivate us still today. I could say don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater, but I prefer the translation of Dostoevsky which gives “without God anything is possible”.

Good night from the UK (and I lost that live game ;-( ).