Abortion sucks

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flash2015
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Re: Abortion sucks

#81 Post by flash2015 » Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:47 pm

Octavious wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:42 pm
I sometimes forget how fortunate I am to be a Brit. I know quite a lot of religious Brits, and none of them believe that the Earth was created in six days. Even the vicars will tell you it's a metaphor. I know plenty of people who will question evolution, but they are largely scientists and I am one of them. Evolution has a number of issues with it. Hell, we don't even have a definition of species we can rely on. But debates between evolution and intelligent design don't happen. Here religion is, and has been for a considerable number of years, a bastion of left wing ideology.

Fire and brimstone old testament style preachers exist only in history books, or the occasional loon on a street corner. It is difficult to imagine them existing in large numbers in a western nation. Not impossible to imagine... it's more believable than discovering Trump is Banksy, say... but it is still very alien.
In Catholic school I too was told it was a metaphor. We went through an analyzed the escape from Egypt and deconstructed it into multiple stories (one without the magical elements and one without the magical elements) combined together. We discussed the makeup of the Gospels, which Gospel was appealing to each community (e.g. if I remember correctly Matthew with all its references to the old testament was trying to appeal to Jews) and how the later written Gospels (e.g. John) had many more magical elements to it (e.g. Mark finishes with Mary coming to the tomb and the tomb being empty leaving some ambiguity about what actually happened, later Gospels like John adds in the stories about Jesus meeting the apostles after his resurrection to leave us in no doubt).

As we all can agree on, just because we don't know everything about evolution doesn't mean that "Intelligent Design" is in any way a valid alternative theory. We have many states in the US that **still** trying to push creationism back into the secular science curriculum though they try and hide it (e.g. "we aren't teaching creationism, we are only 'teaching the controversy'").

There is a logic to taking everything in the Bible literally. Once you start saying this didn't happen and that is only a metaphor, where do you stop? Did the Assumption happen? Did the Resurrection happen (one of my lay teachers suggested it too was a metaphor)? Did the three children see Mary at Fatima? What is in the afterlife and is there really a Heaven and Hell? Was Jesus the Son Of God...or was he just a very enlightened teacher? Does prayer actually make a different? You can go down the "God of the Gaps" path - the Catholic Church whilst not pushing a Intelligent Design/Creationism path, still makes "proven" miracles part of the path to sainthood. Or you try and take absolutely everything as a metaphor...but then how is that much difference than just deciding everything for yourself anyway?

Saying "if you do X, Y and Z and believe in God without question you will go to Heaven, and if you don't you will go to Hell" is a much simpler sell...which is why I believe many Evangelical churches, especially in the USA, go down this path and which I believe is why Evangelical churches are currently the ones more likely to increase their following vs. the more "liberal" churches.

I am not saying religion does not have value. I believe the value in religion comes from its spreading of a moral code and helping people provide meaning in life which for many people is very helpful.

I should stop here. Thanks everyone for the intelligent discussion!
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Durga
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Re: Abortion sucks

#82 Post by Durga » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:27 pm

I'm just here to say: kill all the babies

orathaic
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Re: Abortion sucks

#83 Post by orathaic » Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:07 am

https://www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/p ... PXzl73XQS8

Great article on the history of abortion in the Catholic Church.

Only doesn't mention that St Brigid is reputed to have 'made a nun' s pregnancy dissappear' - for which she is remembered as performing a miracle.

peterlund
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Re: Abortion sucks

#84 Post by peterlund » Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:46 pm

This thread contains of lots views of small boys on how to restrict the right of the grown up woman to decide over her own body.

You better join ISIS or some shit like that, if you want to continue to oppress women. Keep them in the kitchen and bedroom, eh?

Senlac
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Re: Abortion sucks

#85 Post by Senlac » Fri Mar 01, 2019 11:07 pm

An awful subject, but this is my real story of when it impacted my family.
My first marriage was always difficult. We had our first son after 4 years. The second was on his way in the 7th year when my wife declared she wanted out of the marriage & an abortion.
To say it was traumatic is an understatement & coincidentally we were living in a country where abortion was illegal. Many abortions were conducted in clinics 5 miles the other side of the border, but law enforcement could be notified of a “risk situation” in which case it was almost impossible for the woman to exit the country before term. Yep, they took it that seriously.
Anyway long story, short. Because of the illegality it was easy to reach agreement on all aspects like separation, divorce, property, whatever was wanted, as long as son #2 survived. That is what happened.
We eventually ended up apart after a total of 13 years, but by then had 2 happy & fantastic sons, of which we are both immensely proud.

Two morals to the story;
1. My now ex-wife is so upset that this ever happened we never spoke of it again after the birth. I think she would now be permanently scarred if she had just one son & a memory of the one that didn’t make it. Whatever she thought of me at the time could have led to permanently disastrous consequences.
2. If I hadn’t been lucky & living in a place where the law was on my side, I would have lost the argument. In fact it wouldn’t have even been worth trying, the Father usually is irrelevant in these matters.

Even after this experience I am still not absolutely sure what side of the abortion argument I sit. It’s just so difficult. But I do know that I thank God I was living in a place where abortion was illegal all those years ago, especially when my boys make a visit.
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Octavious
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Re: Abortion sucks

#86 Post by Octavious » Sat Mar 02, 2019 11:51 am

A poignant reminder of the complexity of issue, Seniac. Thank you.

Fluminator
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Re: Abortion sucks

#87 Post by Fluminator » Sat Mar 02, 2019 7:46 pm

Yes Peterlund. Believing infants still in the womb should be protected from death = Isis

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Re: Abortion sucks

#88 Post by peterlund » Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:10 pm

ISIS removes all freedom for women. The woman is under legal custody by her father, brother when the father dies or husband when she marries.

The anti-abortion movement, the mid-west stupid religious right, tries to do the same by denying the woman the right to decide over her own body. These people say that men should decide, not the woman having to carry the fetus for 9 months and then bring up the child after birth.

Yes you are like ISIS, trying to control the women, when you should not.

Are you so scared of the independent woman? It should be the opposite. I would only engage myself with women that are independent and grown-up. I have no wish at all to claim a fatherly role for a woman that is my partner. That would simply be boring! I want my partner to be a grown-up person, that I do not need to baby-sit.

flash2015
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Re: Abortion sucks

#89 Post by flash2015 » Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:10 pm

Senlac wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 11:07 pm
An awful subject, but this is my real story of when it impacted my family.
My first marriage was always difficult. We had our first son after 4 years. The second was on his way in the 7th year when my wife declared she wanted out of the marriage & an abortion.
To say it was traumatic is an understatement & coincidentally we were living in a country where abortion was illegal. Many abortions were conducted in clinics 5 miles the other side of the border, but law enforcement could be notified of a “risk situation” in which case it was almost impossible for the woman to exit the country before term. Yep, they took it that seriously.
Anyway long story, short. Because of the illegality it was easy to reach agreement on all aspects like separation, divorce, property, whatever was wanted, as long as son #2 survived. That is what happened.
We eventually ended up apart after a total of 13 years, but by then had 2 happy & fantastic sons, of which we are both immensely proud.

Two morals to the story;
1. My now ex-wife is so upset that this ever happened we never spoke of it again after the birth. I think she would now be permanently scarred if she had just one son & a memory of the one that didn’t make it. Whatever she thought of me at the time could have led to permanently disastrous consequences.
2. If I hadn’t been lucky & living in a place where the law was on my side, I would have lost the argument. In fact it wouldn’t have even been worth trying, the Father usually is irrelevant in these matters.

Even after this experience I am still not absolutely sure what side of the abortion argument I sit. It’s just so difficult. But I do know that I thank God I was living in a place where abortion was illegal all those years ago, especially when my boys make a visit.
I think a big problem is that the major proponents on both sides don't see compromise as possible. At least in the US, for those strongly against abortion, it appears that any regulation on abortion is not seen as an end in itself...but is seen as creating a "web of laws" to try to completely kill abortion.

I would actually support a mandatory waiting period for abortions not required by medical necessity, just like we either do or should have for guns, so that we can make sure that the best decisions are made (I am assuming here that your ex-wife wanted to have the abortion because she was angry with you - perhaps non-judgemental, non-biased pre-abortion counselling could have discovered this too). Though it is very difficult considering the level of distrust and the absolutist ideologues which tend to dominate and go to almost any lengths to stop abortions (e.g. US state regulations which require doctors to lie to patients to about the health risks of abortion, state regulations that try to close abortion clinics through onerous regulation marketed as protecting the safety of the mother, "crisis pregnancy centres" in the US which try to stop women from having abortions through downright deception). I find it very difficult to trust any regulation proposals with the prevalence of this high level of dishonest practice.

Senlac
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Re: Abortion sucks

#90 Post by Senlac » Sun Mar 03, 2019 7:16 pm

“I am assuming here that your ex-wife wanted to have the abortion because she was angry with you - perhaps non-judgemental, non-biased pre-abortion counselling could have discovered this too).”

Re-above. I had to “assume” that as well, because nothing else made sense.

For her, the second pregnancy was probably accidental. She seemed committed to leaving the marriage asap & the pregnancy very ill timed from that perspective, plus may have been concerned about raising one child on her own, let alone a second?

I don’t know anything for sure as I wasn’t inside her head. For me none of that justified an abortion anyway, but for her it did. That’s the kind of problem this subject raises. By communication & compromise the difficulties were overcome & in my eyes a happy ending was achieved. I’m sure she agrees,,, now:-)

I think you are right that the adversarial nature of the current debate will not contribute to achieving a satisfactory solution for anyone.
We “dodged a bullet” in my opinion, by sheer luck what she wanted was illegal. It became impossible without my collaboration, which wasn’t going to happen, thus forcing a sensible negotiation to occur.

I don’t think on issues such as this progress has been made in my entire life (much too long to admit here) despite the millions of words thrown around on the subject. It’s not the only issue where a desperate shortage of wisdom has been applied & an overdose of foolish opinion has been expressed. I’m old enough to say such things now:-)

Fluminator
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Re: Abortion sucks

#91 Post by Fluminator » Sun Mar 03, 2019 7:58 pm

peterlund wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:10 pm
ISIS removes all freedom for women. The woman is under legal custody by her father, brother when the father dies or husband when she marries.

The anti-abortion movement, the mid-west stupid religious right, tries to do the same by denying the woman the right to decide over her own body. These people say that men should decide, not the woman having to carry the fetus for 9 months and then bring up the child after birth.

Yes you are like ISIS, trying to control the women, when you should not.

Are you so scared of the independent woman? It should be the opposite. I would only engage myself with women that are independent and grown-up. I have no wish at all to claim a fatherly role for a woman that is my partner. That would simply be boring! I want my partner to be a grown-up person, that I do not need to baby-sit.
:thumbsup: Hope you find a good partner.

Durga
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Re: Abortion sucks

#92 Post by Durga » Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:02 am

I've met peterlund's family and I have to say that they are all lovely

on a side note, love hearing a bunch of men debate abortion

Durga
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Re: Abortion sucks

#93 Post by Durga » Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:03 am

but srsly if someone forced me to go through with a pregnancy at this stage in my life i'd probably be at the bottom of an ocean rn

orathaic
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Re: Abortion sucks

#94 Post by orathaic » Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:29 am

Bith sides of the argument feed each other. The louder one is the more it recruits opponents for the other side. Strawmen are constructed of the other side's pov, and used to recruit. So in a way, the current abortion debate (in the US at least) is a symbiot. A meme which will not die.

It keeps itself fresh by constantly bouncing arguments about the other off without any incentive to resolve things.

Fluminator
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Re: Abortion sucks

#95 Post by Fluminator » Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:24 am

Durga wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:02 am
I've met peterlund's family and I have to say that they are all lovely

on a side note, love hearing a bunch of men debate abortion
Don't assume gender :P

Durga
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Re: Abortion sucks

#96 Post by Durga » Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:07 am

Fluminator wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:24 am
Durga wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:02 am
I've met peterlund's family and I have to say that they are all lovely

on a side note, love hearing a bunch of men debate abortion
Don't assume gender :P
my dude, it's webdip
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Senlac
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Re: Abortion sucks

#97 Post by Senlac » Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:13 am

Durga wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:02 am
I've met peterlund's family and I have to say that they are all lovely

on a side note, love hearing a bunch of men debate abortion
It’s interesting that one thing I didn’t consider relevant in the abortion debate was gender, however I appear to be in a minority based on comments made.
Typical of really difficult issues to resolve, that folks can’t agree on what is the problem, let alone find consensus on a solution:-)

Durga
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Re: Abortion sucks

#98 Post by Durga » Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:32 am

Senlac wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:13 am
Durga wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:02 am
I've met peterlund's family and I have to say that they are all lovely

on a side note, love hearing a bunch of men debate abortion
It’s interesting that one thing I didn’t consider relevant in the abortion debate was gender, however I appear to be in a minority based on comments made.
Typical of really difficult issues to resolve, that folks can’t agree on what is the problem, let alone find consensus on a solution:-)
it's incredibly relevant. it is something that only happens to women's bodies. you will never be in a position to consider an abortion or carry out a pregnancy. that is not something that you *personally* will ever go through. your wife might have and that could maybe have ancillary impacts on you - but your body will remain the way it always would be

Durga
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Re: Abortion sucks

#99 Post by Durga » Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:37 am

and who caries the burden of raising children in society? women x100000

Fluminator
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Re: Abortion sucks

#100 Post by Fluminator » Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:53 am

To be fair, assuming its a baby, I don't think the baby cares whether the person arguing for its right to life has a penis or not.
But yeah, men need to be held more accountable when potentially impregnating women.

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