Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

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FlaviusAetius
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Re: Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

#61 Post by FlaviusAetius » Sun May 12, 2019 3:28 am

Im just talking about live games actually. I think its p understandable for someone to miss a turn in one, so to have a little bit of buffer is nice

Carl Tuckerson
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Re: Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

#62 Post by Carl Tuckerson » Mon May 13, 2019 4:47 am

I thought I would provide some more feedback, now that I finally got to play a live game under the new system, and see it in action.

This is a massive improvement. We had a couple of people go AWOL, and frankly it doesn't even matter how many excused turns you give, just the fact that the game rewinds if anyone would miss orders so that everybody can move with full knowledge that someone is missing is huge.

Great job!
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Re: Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

#63 Post by FlaviusAetius » Thu May 16, 2019 3:24 am

Ok question, it says I have a Recent penalty of 18% and a Yearly penalty of 15%, does this mean there is no way I can fix these two? And when does Recent penalty wear off? Without these penalties, my RR rating would be over 96% but now its stuck at 64%

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Re: Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

#64 Post by jmo1121109 » Thu May 16, 2019 3:49 am

FlaviusAetius wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 3:24 am
Ok question, it says I have a Recent penalty of 18% and a Yearly penalty of 15%, does this mean there is no way I can fix these two? And when does Recent penalty wear off? Without these penalties, my RR rating would be over 96% but now its stuck at 64%
If you click on "(Reliability Explained)" right above those 2 stats on your profile you'll be taken to a page that shows your breakdown. http://webdiplomacy.net/profile.php?det ... erID=98845 (if you see "You do not have permission to view this" then change http to https or add www to match however you use the site.

That page has 2 clickable FAQ style questions that answer your questions.
What is Reliability?
Reliability is how consistently you avoid interrupting games. Any un-excused missed turns hurt your rating. If you have any un-excused missed turns in the last 4 weeks you will receive an 11% penalty to your RR for each of those delays. It is very important to everyone you are playing with to be reliable but we understand mistakes happen so this extra penality will drop to 5% after 28 days. All of the un-excused missed turns that negatively impact your rating are highlighed in red below. Excused delays will only negatively impact your base score, seen below. Mod excused delays do not hurt your score in any way.

System Excused: If you had an "excused missed turn" left this will be yes and will not cause additional penalties against your rating.
Mod Excused: If a moderator excused the missed turn this field will be yes and will not cause additional penalties against your rating.
Same Period Excused: If you have multiple un-excused missed turns in a 72 hour period you are only penalized once, if this field is yes it will not cause additional penalties against your rating.
So long story short the recent penalty will go away after 28 days, the yearly penalty after 365 days. If you have another un-excused delay the system will temp ban you for 24 hours which means you will be unable to take your CD positions back during that time period, and you'll be unable to join or start new games. Since you seem to be having a harder time with reliability I would recommend joining and starting games with 2-4 excuses to accommodate your less flexible schedule which is causing you to miss more turns per game then the average player.

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Re: Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

#65 Post by FlaviusAetius » Thu May 16, 2019 4:51 am

Its just live games :p

eliwhitney
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Re: Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

#66 Post by eliwhitney » Fri May 17, 2019 7:39 pm

The problem is that players forget to check if they have a move to make. I think we need to reconsider optional automated emails reminding players to enter their order.

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Re: Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

#67 Post by jmo1121109 » Fri May 17, 2019 8:51 pm

eliwhitney wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 7:39 pm
The problem is that players forget to check if they have a move to make. I think we need to reconsider optional automated emails reminding players to enter their order.
It's not a problem of reconsidering it, it's a problem of it not being feasible on a free to play site from what we've found in terms of free email services and the volume of email's we'd need to send for this feature.

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Re: Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

#68 Post by Nynzal » Fri May 17, 2019 11:20 pm

How is it possible that in a game with only 1excused turn, the very first turn gets delayed multiple Times? Shouldnt it be that all players that dont enter orders lose their free turn and not only one? Because the waiting just unreadies the orders. I think that is a bad Interactions. Every player should lose the free turn regardless if other players did not order moves too.

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Re: Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

#69 Post by Claesar » Sat May 18, 2019 11:16 am

Nynzal wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 11:20 pm
How is it possible that in a game with only 1excused turn, the very first turn gets delayed multiple Times? Shouldnt it be that all players that dont enter orders lose their free turn and not only one? Because the waiting just unreadies the orders. I think that is a bad Interactions. Every player should lose the free turn regardless if other players did not order moves too.
You presume incorrectly.

The first delay is for everyone who misses the first turn. Then there's another delay because they still don't enter orders and need to be replaced.

The replacements don't receive an excused turn, but if they fail to enter orders the game is delayed oncemore to replace them as well.

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Re: Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

#70 Post by Wusti » Mon May 27, 2019 5:51 am

I have to say that I hate this new system for 2 reasons:

1 I've spent years on this site with a 95%+ RR and in one game where I had a bad week I got dropped to 80% with a complete reset, and to add insult to injury am in a Chaos game with excuses since i didn't bother to read the blog.

Literally FML
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marperra
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Re: Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

#71 Post by marperra » Mon May 27, 2019 9:25 am

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that if a player doesn't enter his orders, and has no excused missed turn left, his country goes into civil disorder, the player is substituted, but the phase is restarted, and not played with all his units on hold.

This way, the phase could go on forever, with multiple replacements, with all the other players agonizing, especially if the position is so bad that even the replacement has no great interest to enter orders given he's already doomed (and this could happen a lot of times in a chaos game).

Wouldn't it be better, when a country goes into civil disorder, don't restart the phase but play it at least once with its units on hold (or disbanded, if it's a retreat phase), as a penalty for the country, and just to advance the game a bit? And then of course, replacing the player.
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Re: Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

#72 Post by Claesar » Mon May 27, 2019 10:08 am

marperra wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 9:25 am
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that if a player doesn't enter his orders, and has no excused missed turn left, his country goes into civil disorder, the player is substituted, but the phase is restarted, and not played with all his units on hold.

This way, the phase could go on forever, with multiple replacements, with all the other players agonizing, especially if the position is so bad that even the replacement has no great interest to enter orders given he's already doomed (and this could happen a lot of times in a chaos game).

Wouldn't it be better, when a country goes into civil disorder, don't restart the phase but play it at least once with its units on hold (or disbanded, if it's a retreat phase), as a penalty for the country, and just to advance the game a bit? And then of course, replacing the player.
No, we're trying to prevent phases going on without orders. That's the whole point.

The scenario you describe also shouldn't happen (typically), for two reasons:

1) The (new) replacement player doesn't receive any excuses turns.
2) There are no automatic replacents. Someone has to physically press a button to decide to join. It stands to reason that means they're interested in entering orders for that country in its current position.

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Re: Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

#73 Post by shadow2 » Tue May 28, 2019 9:41 pm

I have played on this site for quite some time, with a hiatus during my college years. I hated when units would not move and make the game imbalanced for all players. So I support this idea of excused turns.

But it seems that things have gone too far in the other direction. There are now too many breaks in the game due to excused turns and civil disorders. The extended phases almost seem like a mandatory pause to me. In gunboat games, this is very aggravating, constantly waiting for the game to actually progress. In message games, this allows for more diplomatic discussion to take place. This not only puts the country who is taking over the civil disorder at a disadvantage, but it also goes against the rules of the game.

Time Management

Diplomacy and other conversation shouldn’t be allowed during the writing and reading of orders, between moves and retreats, during and after retreats, or during adjustments.

Civil Disorder

If you leave the game or otherwise fail to submit orders on a given
Spring or Fall turn, it’s assumed that your government has collapsed.
Your units all hold in position, but don’t support each other. If
they’re dislodged, they’re disbanded. No new units are raised for
the country.

(Diplomacy Rules, pg 19)


Also in comment to Claesar's post earlier.
Claesar wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 10:08 am
2) There are no automatic replacents. Someone has to physically press a button to decide to join. It stands to reason that means they're interested in entering orders for that country in its current position.
This is not always true. In reference to 2 games that I have played in that are recently finished.

http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameI ... #gamePanel
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameI ... #gamePanel

I think a better solution would be allow excused turns to all starting players. Turns are excused until they have 0 remaining. When they have 0 remaining, the country goes into civil disorder and the game is available to be joined by other members of the community.

This solution follows the original rules of Diplomacy more closely. It allows some grace for players and it does not disrupt the flow of the game too much as there can only be as many excused turns as players at the beginning of the game. The excused turn method needs some tweaking. But I really appreciate this stab (in the back :-) ) solution to an age old problem on this site and it is a very creative and necessary solution. Thank you devs and mods for implementing these solutions and always trying to make the game fun and fair for everyone.

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Re: Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

#74 Post by New England Fire Squad » Wed May 29, 2019 2:17 pm

I may not be a great player or a player that has much clout, but until the last couple of weeks I was perhaps the most active live player on the site, with an RR of 90%. I understand what the mods are trying to accomplish with the new system, and I think that it's excellent for non-live games. For live games - my RR has greatly suffered. I'll take my lumps for that - I NMR'd twice in 479 phases, and although a 22% RR drop for that seems steep, it is what it is. I'd like it to be less, since my rating now prevents me from joining games sometimes, but I fucked up and have to deal with it. I'm less happy about other live players who played often and where for the most part reliable getting bad RR's - I won't throw others names out here, but if you toggle through my recent live games you'll see NMR's and CD's by people who played a lot of live games with previously decent RR's who will now also be prevented from joining higher bid, high RR games; and some of these players have been playing far less too.
What I'm really not a fan of is the greatly increased time length of live games. What was a 2-3 hour commitment can increase dramatically, with the usual early nmr's by people who either missed the start time or just didn't like the country they drew. Towards midgame, more nmr's happen as the salt flows from the losing players - towards the endgame, particularly if a solo looks inevitable, this oftentimes happens again, by multiple players. This hurts the flow of a gunboat less, since one doesn't need to be constantly watching, but man oh man with press games it can be brutal. I still love this site of course, and still will be feeding my diplo addiction here. Rant over.

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Re: Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

#75 Post by New England Fire Squad » Wed May 29, 2019 2:26 pm

New England Fire Squad wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 2:17 pm
I may not be a great player or a player that has much clout, but until the last couple of weeks I was perhaps the most active live player on the site, with an RR of 90%. I understand what the mods are trying to accomplish with the new system, and I think that it's excellent for non-live games. For live games - my RR has greatly suffered. I'll take my lumps for that - I NMR'd twice in 479 phases, and although a 22% RR drop for that seems steep, it is what it is. I'd like it to be less, since my rating now prevents me from joining games sometimes, but I fucked up and have to deal with it. I'm less happy about other live players who played often and where for the most part reliable getting bad RR's - I won't throw others names out here, but if you toggle through my recent live games you'll see NMR's and CD's by people who played a lot of live games with previously decent RR's who will now also be prevented from joining higher bid, high RR games; and some of these players have been playing far less too.
What I'm really not a fan of is the greatly increased time length of live games. What was a 2-3 hour commitment can increase dramatically, with the usual early nmr's by people who either missed the start time or just didn't like the country they drew. Towards midgame, more nmr's happen as the salt flows from the losing players - towards the endgame, particularly if a solo looks inevitable, this oftentimes happens again, by multiple players. This hurts the flow of a gunboat less, since one doesn't need to be constantly watching, but man oh man with press games it can be brutal. I still love this site of course, and still will be feeding my diplo addiction here. Rant over.
As for proposals - I didn't hate the old system for live games. Game time length was much less, and was much more reasonable. Usually games with a bunch of nmr's ended in draws, which was fine. If that's impossible, understood - how about a different RR for live and non live games, as Chaqa suggested? This wouldn't fix the time issue, but it would at least make usually reliable player's RR's correlate more strongly with how reliable they actually are. As for his other suggestion - the last thing I want is for 0 excused turns to no longer be an option for live games; if the lowest available was 1 excused turn, then a CD by a player could cause a 21 minute delay in a 7 minute phase game. Since nmr's usually happen more than once, that's a huge bunch of people's time wasted.

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Re: Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

#76 Post by New England Fire Squad » Wed May 29, 2019 2:28 pm

Or, if possible, one could choose to select 'old system', or 'new system', when creating a game?

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Re: Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

#77 Post by jmo1121109 » Wed May 29, 2019 5:34 pm

New England Fire Squad wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 2:28 pm
Or, if possible, one could choose to select 'old system', or 'new system', when creating a game?
Not an option. We had too many people abuse the old system and rack up hundreds or thousands of NMR's. We're not allowing that anymore.
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FlaviusAetius
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Re: Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

#78 Post by FlaviusAetius » Wed May 29, 2019 6:17 pm

Im in the same boat as you New England ;(
I just feel live games are just not feasible under this new system...
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Re: Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

#79 Post by New England Fire Squad » Wed May 29, 2019 9:23 pm

jmo1121109 wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 5:34 pm
New England Fire Squad wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 2:28 pm
Or, if possible, one could choose to select 'old system', or 'new system', when creating a game?
Not an option. We had too many people abuse the old system and rack up hundreds or thousands of NMR's. We're not allowing that anymore.
Fair enough, although I didn't mean this for RR - I meant it for time. Would it be possible to allow games to simply continue if a player NMR's rather than resetting the phase?

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Re: Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

#80 Post by jmo1121109 » Wed May 29, 2019 11:34 pm

New England Fire Squad wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 9:23 pm
jmo1121109 wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 5:34 pm
New England Fire Squad wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 2:28 pm
Or, if possible, one could choose to select 'old system', or 'new system', when creating a game?
Not an option. We had too many people abuse the old system and rack up hundreds or thousands of NMR's. We're not allowing that anymore.
Fair enough, although I didn't mean this for RR - I meant it for time. Would it be possible to allow games to simply continue if a player NMR's rather than resetting the phase?
In the next couple weeks...most likely...we'll be announcing something that will solve this problem. In a very outside the box way.

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