Gun control

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orathaic
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Gun control

#1 Post by orathaic » Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:18 am

I have to admit, the webdip forums (of old) truly inspired this one:

“Guns and Cars!” by ORathai C https://link.medium.com/iphUdWfKqT

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Re: Gun control

#2 Post by Octavious » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:15 am

I genuinely have no idea who would win with a car like license and insurance system for guns, other than insurance companies.

You say that we don't just let anyone drive, but the reality is that we pretty much do. The tests are not overly challenging, and can be taken time and time again until they're passed. To not get a licence despite trying you have to be utterly useless.

As for insurance, you will note that despite it existing for cars you still observe a vast number of accidents and deaths. There may be some small deterrent, but surely this pales into insignificance compared to the deterrent of not wanting to hurt someone. People reckless with the lives of others won't suddenly be risk averse to save a few quid.

And, of course, neither licensing nor insurance has any impact whatsoever on those who deliberately use vehicles to kill. It will not stop mass shootings in the same way that the prospects of disqualification and insurance costs did not stop the terror attacks on Christmas Markets a year or so ago.

In short, I don't see the point.
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Re: Gun control

#3 Post by orathaic » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:23 pm

You raise some interesting and valid points, however the major item at issue, in my mind, is pushing the cost (and a potential profit) onto insurance companies.

The assumption here would be that they would then profile potential mass shooters, work out who was most likely to be radicalised or prone to violence; probably end up using tracking technologies which most tech companies use (like Google for advertising) to collect information about your online behaviour, and attempt to find correlations which would then help with mass shootings.

Of course, counter to my position, it is arguable that law enforcement should already be using this kind of technology, and if it worked as well as I imagine then surely they would already be stopping all manner of mass shootings... And my only counter to that is the claim that a profit motive is *supposed* to make corporations more innovative...

But back to your original point. Yes, we do basically let anyone who really wants to drive; but I don't think it is a bad thing from a safety perspective that we force them to pass a test first. And the same logic seems equally valid for gun ownership (though arguably, my logic would only apply to public places, and not the home, which is where many gun accidents happen... So let's just assume I really want to see testing and licensing of all gun owners).

You are entirely right that this would do nothing with regard mass shootings; but building a system to reduce gun deaths as a whole is not a bad thing (and any US based gun owners I know are rather safety conscious to begin with... I don't know that they would be fond of govt limitations on who can own a gun, but they would be happy with the idea of improving gun safety...)
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Re: Gun control

#4 Post by TrPrado » Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:29 pm

The “cost” in this instance is pretty exclusively criminal penalty, and you can’t push off criminal punishment onto insurance companies. And several forms of firearms already require licensing, and licenses are also required to bring those to certain locations or to conceal them. Adding new layers of restriction on top of that, especially making it nationally centralized, would range from pointless to being a restrictive hassle for the sake of restriction, neither of which would go well.
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Re: Gun control

#5 Post by mar » Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:06 am

The second amendment: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." As long as that law is followed everything is fine. I'm not crazy about owning guns, I'm crazy about following the law. I believe that if you want to own a gun you should be obligated to train with it at least 12 hours a year, that's 1 hour a month, and go through a mental evaluation process. Then once everything is set, citizens should be encouraged to carry their weapons in public. This would be an immediate deterrent to anyone who is looking to commit a violent crime because the potential terrorist has no idea if the area they are going to terrorize has,not only armed, but trained people inside that will defend themselves and everyone around them.
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Re: Gun control

#6 Post by Randomizer » Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:18 am

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nat ... 568146002/

Somehow the age of gun toters keeps dropping and this is why we need more restrictions, because there are enough irresponsible legal gun owners out there. Training doesn't help because even armed professionals leave their guns behind in restrooms and unsecured.

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Re: Gun control

#7 Post by TrPrado » Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:43 am

I don’t think average age of gun owners is important at all.
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Re: Gun control

#8 Post by orathaic » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:16 pm

@mar if everyone is armed, doesn't that lead to more racism?

Or why is it that only black guys with guns get shoot by police, when protecting people: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washin ... story.html

Oh sorry, didn't mean to make this about race. Let's ignore race, how about good guys with guns shot by police. Kinda ruins your whole narrative?

And second, there us no reason to assume, given the second amendment, that those militias should be allowed to bring their guns home. Keep them in a common militia secure facility. Only have them out on official militia business.

If the 2nd amendment is really what you want. There is no reason gun ownership shouldn't be limited to militia members, and no reason the 'well regulated' part shouldn't mean regular training, drills, marching, etc. (you can even have insurance companies make a profit by forcing the militias to have insurance). Well regulated could mean high standards of security on weapon storage at a central location (in each town).

I mean, you could also argue that the 'being necessary for the security of a free-state' doesn't mean what it did in 1791. There was a time when the US was threatened by the Spanish in the South, the British in the North and the Indian tribes in the west/rest of the continent. Now you're looking at a nuclear armed power with two oceans on either side, and peaceful relations both north and south.

There is no comparison. As such the whole amendment should be revisited... But emotions will stop that.

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Re: Gun control

#9 Post by MajorMitchell » Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:31 am

As numerous readers will be aware, I support reasonable, effective gun control laws and regard myself as fortunate to live in a nation, Australia, that has managed to implement such gun control laws. Once again I urge citizens of the USA to consider supporting the introduction of similar effective gun control laws in their nation.
Sadly I am prompted by yet another tragic shooting event in the USA, this time in California and note the tragic death of a young child. I ask, how many more innocent children have to be killed by a gun in the USA before effective action is taken ?

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Re: Gun control

#10 Post by Stressedlines » Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:59 pm

Well regulated also doesn't mean the same now as it did in 1791...what's your point of that comment if you disregard the one that you highlighted in the start?

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Re: Gun control

#11 Post by MajorMitchell » Tue Jul 30, 2019 4:24 pm

@ Orathaic. I think you are right, calm rational discussion and reasoning unfortunately do not prevail in the gun control discussion in the USA, You mention emotion as dominant, to that I would add, scaremongering, false propaganda and ignorance. It's a paradox that what should be self evident is not clearly recognised

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Re: Gun control

#12 Post by Stressedlines » Tue Jul 30, 2019 5:03 pm

And everything you list comes.from both sides of the arguement

I already know which side you are on but I doubt t you hold both sides responsible equally

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Re: Gun control

#13 Post by Stressedlines » Tue Jul 30, 2019 5:27 pm

And orthaic is t doing this discussion any favors either with his race-baiting lead in

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Re: Gun control

#14 Post by orathaic » Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:24 am

Stressedlines wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:59 pm
Well regulated also doesn't mean the same now as it did in 1791...what's your point of that comment if you disregard the one that you highlighted in the start?
Yeah, it seems to mean not regulated at all, at least as far as the NRA look at things.

There was a time when the fought for gun control, because they didn't want mass shootings and risk having their guns taken away (before the gun lobby took over the NRA).

Still, there are two ways to look at a constitution, what the authors meant when writing it, and what a modern interpretation would be.

The latter leads to supreme courts making law (like Roe vs Wade), the former requires amendments to fix oversights of the authors (which are next to impossible in the modern US).

The racism of US gun experience is not 'race-baiting' it is a reality. Talk to any of your black friends about open carry, and how they feel about blue lives matter.

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Re: Gun control

#15 Post by Octavious » Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:56 am

I've never understood why there's such a debate about a well regulated militia. To me the meaning of the constitution is pretty clear. All citizens should have the right to keep and carry weapons so that a militia of the people can be formed as and when needed. It's pretty consistent with the ideals of the time, in that trust and responsibility is placed with the people rather than a ruling class.

The problem is not that the constitution is being misinterpreted. The problem is that it's bollocks.
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Re: Gun control

#16 Post by Stressedlines » Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:57 am

Orthaic. When you say 'only black men's which means nobody else gets shot by cops please do tell me if that isnt race-baiting what exactly is...I'll wait
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Re: Gun control

#17 Post by Stressedlines » Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:58 am

And I'll wait for sources to back that lead statement up

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Re: Gun control

#18 Post by orathaic » Fri Aug 02, 2019 7:13 am

Stressedlines wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:57 am
Orthaic. When you say 'only black men's which means nobody else gets shot by cops please do tell me if that isnt race-baiting what exactly is...I'll wait
That is the worst kind of stupidity. I was referring to 'good guys with guns'being shot by police. Which is very clear from the discussion above. So it doesn' t mean anything like your out of context bullshit quote.

You find me an example of an armed citizen attempting to stop a live shooter event, and where the police arrived to kill the 'good guy'. And I'll show you an example of that good guy being not white.

I'll be waiting for a counter example.

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Re: Gun control

#19 Post by Stressedlines » Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:45 pm

I'll show u 3 guys in Georgia shot in their own home by police cuz they had sidearms when they answered the door. Would that do? Btw they were of not 1 race
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Re: Gun control

#20 Post by orathaic » Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:05 pm

We're they good guys with guns making the public safe by carrying their weapons?

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