the dutch blitzkrieg

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ziran
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the dutch blitzkrieg

#1 Post by ziran » Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:02 am

i wanted to start a conversation about the less common german opening:
kiel-hol
ber-kiel
mun-ruhr or bur

i can't think of a scenario where i would use this opening. if you force belgium, you'll have a target on your back. it strikes me as very anti-english; that fleet isn't threatening Russia or France. you get russia on your side, or they might stab you.

when do people use this opening?
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Claesar
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Re: the dutch blitzkrieg

#2 Post by Claesar » Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:01 am

I would open this if I wanted to show England I dislike them, and France is okay with me having Belgium. Or if I desperately want to show Russia I won't bounce them out.

I'm not a fan either though.

Vecna
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Re: the dutch blitzkrieg

#3 Post by Vecna » Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:00 pm

Boats do not blitzkrieg

mhsmith0
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Re: the dutch blitzkrieg

#4 Post by mhsmith0 » Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:51 pm

I'd think dutch blitzkrieg (which requires Mun-Ruhr) is probably pretty decent if you're going Sealion and want Russian support (particularly in terms of booting England from Norway)

I'd think Dutch Opening, Burgundy Attack variant (that's this setup but with Mun-Bur), is probably pretty decent if you're going EGI against France, though Danish Gambit (Kie-Hol, Ber-Mun, Mun-Ruh, bypassing Denmark entirely in 1901) is probably more effective for a fully committed attack against France.

This sort of concept might be more effective than usual if you're playing gunboat, since Russia is usually a pretty weak gunboat power anyway so giving them an early hand up probably won't hurt you very much, and putting yourself in better position in the west might pay off overall.
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Claesar
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Re: the dutch blitzkrieg

#5 Post by Claesar » Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:05 pm

mhsmith0 wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:51 pm
I'd think dutch blitzkrieg (which requires Mun-Ruhr) is probably pretty decent if you're going Sealion and want Russian support (particularly in terms of booting England from Norway)

...
Interesting thought, since the Sealion I know starts with Kie-Den. Perhaps this indeed is better at getting Russia onboard.

ziran
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Re: the dutch blitzkrieg

#6 Post by ziran » Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:01 am

Claesar wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:01 am
I would open this if I wanted to show England I dislike them, and France is okay with me having Belgium. Or if I desperately want to show Russia I won't bounce them out.
i think this makes the most sense. either france is okay with letting you take belgium, or you already know an e/f is coming your way.

another question I forgot to ask is how to follow up? what do you do with the army in denmark? fleet holland probably supports kiel-hel. i guess it depends on the situation.

Tantrum
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Re: the dutch blitzkrieg

#7 Post by Tantrum » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:04 am

I use that opening about 90% of the time when playing Gunboat (with Mun-Ruh). I like it because it gives you a good chance of getting 6 in 1901, it gives Russia a nice warm feeling about you and you can still force Sweden if you want with a F Kie build in 1901.

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Re: the dutch blitzkrieg

#8 Post by Claesar » Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:25 am

ziran wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:01 am
...

another question I forgot to ask is how to follow up? what do you do with the army in denmark? fleet holland probably supports kiel-hel. i guess it depends on the situation.
Yes, that's another reason I don't like the opening. That army can either move to Sweden, or back to Kiel (and probably swap with a freshly built fleet).
Technically it could convoy as well, but who would help you go where? England has a fleet nearby, but you've just upset them with your opener..

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Re: the dutch blitzkrieg

#9 Post by Claesar » Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:29 am

Tantrum wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:04 am
... and you can still force Sweden if you want with a F Kie build in 1901.
Unless Russia outguesses you and bounces you out of Baltic, since you can't support yourself with the army.

BananaFang
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Re: the dutch blitzkrieg

#10 Post by BananaFang » Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:26 pm

If you open to Hol/Ruh/Kie then I see England leaving Belgium alone and bouncing A Kie-Den. Then you can't even build a fleet in Kiel.

If Russia moves Mos->StP and forces England to support themselves into Nwy then you still have the other problem mentioned previously with the army in Den being a bit of a lame duck. I guess if you and France force NTH then you can convoy it over to England.

I'm not a gunboat player, maybe it works there but I don't like it for Classic.

ziran
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Re: the dutch blitzkrieg

#11 Post by ziran » Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:38 pm

BananaFang wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:26 pm
If you open to Hol/Ruh/Kie then I see England leaving Belgium alone and bouncing A Kie-Den. Then you can't even build a fleet in Kiel.

If Russia moves Mos->StP and forces England to support themselves into Nwy then you still have the other problem mentioned previously with the army in Den being a bit of a lame duck. I guess if you and France force NTH then you can convoy it over to England.

I'm not a gunboat player, maybe it works there but I don't like it for Classic.
another scenario in which england would avoid bouncing you in denmark is: if they open to yorkshire, they'll need nth to convoy.

BananaFang
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Re: the dutch blitzkrieg

#12 Post by BananaFang » Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:23 pm

if they open to yorkshire, they'll need nth to convoy.
They can still convoy Yor-Den over NTH and do NWG-Nwy...

Your only "protection" from the bounce seems to be A Mos-StP.

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