World Cup 2018 Signups!

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Ogion
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Re: World Cup 2018 Signups!

#481 Post by Ogion » Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:46 pm

Also, do we have any insight into how chipperock broke the anonymity of the tournament? That was highly suspicious and we wouldn't want that to happen again. Of course, with South being out, perhaps it is less of an issue.

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Re: World Cup 2018 Signups!

#482 Post by ChippeRock » Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:52 pm

Ogion wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:46 pm
Also, do we have any insight into how chipperock broke the anonymity of the tournament? That was highly suspicious and we wouldn't want that to happen again. Of course, with South being out, perhaps it is less of an issue.
I've told the mods and goldfinger exactly how I did it and we all seem to agree there were to rule violations.

Perhaps if I receive enough PMs requesting it I'll make a forum topic explaining how I did it.

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Re: World Cup 2018 Signups!

#483 Post by goldfinger0303 » Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:06 pm

*no rule violations.

In short, by being on the site at all times and logging when he received messages from each person. Even with current anonymity settings, that can allow educated guesses over the course of weeks. Especially when other games have pauses and/or start finishing up.

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Re: World Cup 2018 Signups!

#484 Post by JECE » Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:00 pm

Yeah, after the changes to anonymous games were introduced I explained to the mods how easy it would still be to break anonymity.

The mods agreed with me, but they halved my cash prize because they thought my method "difficult to to". If goldfinger0303's description is accurate, then ChippeRock's method is much harder and labor-intensive. Humph! I demand the rest of my prize, ha ha.

(By the way, in spite of what you can read in the post I linked to, the has yet to be addressed.)

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Re: World Cup 2018 Signups!

#485 Post by JECE » Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:04 pm

Yay, 100 posts on the new forum!

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Re: World Cup 2018 Signups!

#486 Post by Balki Bartokomous » Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:06 pm

One aspect of anonymity that the current rules do not address specifically: openly speculating using in-game messages about the identities or teams of other power on the board.

I think that, if we want the final to be anonymous (and I think we do), we should not allow players to openly speculate about the identity of anyone else in messages to other powers. And you should not be able to identify yourself (correctly or incorrectly).

If I say: “Hey, I’m pretty sure that Russia is that weasel from Team California which just soloed FP1,” and another power says “I think you’re right.” We’ve both just told the other powers, “I’m not Team California.”

I think that each individual team should be able to speculate and discuss identities, of course, and even make decisions in-game that are based on that speculation. But I’d rather not engage in a battle of “I’m not Team Canada, are you?” “No, I’m Team Silicon Valley, so be nice to me.”

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Re: World Cup 2018 Signups!

#487 Post by Balki Bartokomous » Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:08 pm

I’ll add — if there is no rule against self-identification, then a team that doesn’t mind being identified early (perhaps a lower-seeded team) might approach the game by sending out a message to everyone individually and say “Hey, I’m team X, what team are you?”

They may not learn for 100% sure who is who from such an exercise, but they’ll likely narrow it down quite a bit.

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Re: World Cup 2018 Signups!

#488 Post by ghug » Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:26 pm

JECE, if I recall correctly, your method only works when powers are NMRing or CDing.

I mostly break anonymity in my own games by knowing at least by some reputation everyone I'm playing and noticing clues in their press over time. There are better ways, but they never feel necessary.

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Re: World Cup 2018 Signups!

#489 Post by slypups » Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:29 pm

goldfinger0303 wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:21 pm
It was just some flavor/bragging rights. Was trying to have a bit of fun
Great reason for it! :-D Heartily approve of the seeding and boxing-style announcement of the teams going into the finals. I definitely appreciate the entertainment value in that. I was just curious if it had any actual affect on the games (ex: higher ranked teams getting countries that on average do better).

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Re: World Cup 2018 Signups!

#490 Post by slypups » Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:39 pm

goldfinger0303 wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:06 pm
*no rule violations.

In short, by being on the site at all times and logging when he received messages from each person. Even with current anonymity settings, that can allow educated guesses over the course of weeks. Especially when other games have pauses and/or start finishing up.
I thought it was something like this. By monitoring when players post in the current game and in other games they are playing, and when they are active or showing as not-logged-in over time, you could figure out who is who over time. Still, I find such sleuthing distasteful, as it is an activity outside the game itself to try to gather information, and therefore pseudo-illicit for a game that is supposed to be self-contained (outside of monitoring and talking to your teammates in the other games). Not a fan of Chip for this.

However, in the end I think he hurt himself more than harm himself by making the reveal. Because of his commentary, I had a pretty good idea he (playing Russia) was on team South in my group, and therefore I was more comfortable drawing once he was eliminated. If I didn't know if one of the other survivors (Austria, Italy, or Germany) were team South where a draw would advance team South over my team California, I might have pushed more to solo myself, resulting in one of the other players soloing or me being eliminated and then the rest drawing, and thus advancing team South. So he really blew it by disclosing his information. He was better off manipulating without revealing what he knew.
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Re: World Cup 2018 Signups!

#491 Post by slypups » Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:41 pm

hurt himself more than _help_ himself

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Re: World Cup 2018 Signups!

#492 Post by JECE » Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:03 am

ghug wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:26 pm
JECE, if I recall correctly, your method only works when powers are NMRing or CDing.
No, my e-mail talks about "NMR'd or had been silent in press", "NMR or long silence in communication" and "length of time since each Great Power last sent press."

I also touched on a separate method that works with "observing Unpause votes."

ghug wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:26 pm
I mostly break anonymity in my own games by knowing at least by some reputation everyone I'm playing and noticing clues in their press over time. There are better ways, but they never feel necessary.
Well yes, press style is a clear giveaway for many users. The changes to anonymous games weren't meant to make that harder, though.

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Re: World Cup 2018 Signups!

#493 Post by celaph » Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:18 am

Balki Bartokomous wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:06 pm
One aspect of anonymity that the current rules do not address specifically: openly speculating using in-game messages about the identities or teams of other power on the board.
I agree that we should clarify the rules on this particular subject before we start the finals, but I think I fall on the other side of the fence as yourself.

In my opinion, as long as there is no independent outside way to verify any claim made in the in-game messages, then any message should be allowed. You could go into FP1 and say: "Hi, I am on team Silicon Valley, please my kind to me" just as easily as I could and no one could tell the difference. I feel that because anyone can claim to be any team and no one can (or at least no one should) work to prove/confirm any of claims then the playing field is level.

That said, I would be open to hearing arguments for the other side.

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Re: World Cup 2018 Signups!

#494 Post by ChippeRock » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:14 am

slypups wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:39 pm
goldfinger0303 wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:06 pm
*no rule violations.

In short, by being on the site at all times and logging when he received messages from each person. Even with current anonymity settings, that can allow educated guesses over the course of weeks. Especially when other games have pauses and/or start finishing up.
I thought it was something like this. By monitoring when players post in the current game and in other games they are playing, and when they are active or showing as not-logged-in over time, you could figure out who is who over time. Still, I find such sleuthing distasteful, as it is an activity outside the game itself to try to gather information, and therefore pseudo-illicit for a game that is supposed to be self-contained (outside of monitoring and talking to your teammates in the other games). Not a fan of Chip for this.

However, in the end I think he hurt himself more than harm himself by making the reveal. Because of his commentary, I had a pretty good idea he (playing Russia) was on team South in my group, and therefore I was more comfortable drawing once he was eliminated. If I didn't know if one of the other survivors (Austria, Italy, or Germany) were team South where a draw would advance team South over my team California, I might have pushed more to solo myself, resulting in one of the other players soloing or me being eliminated and then the rest drawing, and thus advancing team South. So he really blew it by disclosing his information. He was better off manipulating without revealing what he knew.
You kidding me? How can you still be salty?

My plan would have worked if Austria realized that allowing the very strong team California into the Finals with them over the weak team Upper Mississippi was a dumb idea.

I got screwed in that he didn't want to "meta" in a tournament all about meta-gaming. Got stuck with a noob. A better player would have thrown Italy the solo to make their team's path to the Championship easier.

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Re: World Cup 2018 Signups!

#495 Post by Ezio » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:31 am

I take issue with the assessment team California is very strong. We suck.

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Re: World Cup 2018 Signups!

#496 Post by VillageIdiot » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:36 am

Ezio wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:31 am
I take issue with the assessment team California is very strong. We suck.
Classic reverse psychology, that means they MUST be ringers! Let’s get em guys!!
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Re: World Cup 2018 Signups!

#497 Post by goldfinger0303 » Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:32 am

Balki Bartokomous wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:06 pm
One aspect of anonymity that the current rules do not address specifically: openly speculating using in-game messages about the identities or teams of other power on the board.

I think that, if we want the final to be anonymous (and I think we do), we should not allow players to openly speculate about the identity of anyone else in messages to other powers. And you should not be able to identify yourself (correctly or incorrectly).

If I say: “Hey, I’m pretty sure that Russia is that weasel from Team California which just soloed FP1,” and another power says “I think you’re right.” We’ve both just told the other powers, “I’m not Team California.”

I think that each individual team should be able to speculate and discuss identities, of course, and even make decisions in-game that are based on that speculation. But I’d rather not engage in a battle of “I’m not Team Canada, are you?” “No, I’m Team Silicon Valley, so be nice to me.”
Per the rules:
"Cross-gaming:
Players may not enter into alliances spanning over more than one game under any circumstances. In other words, teams and players are prohibited from trading favors in one game for favors in another.

Metagaming:
The games are anonymous to dissuade metagaming by teams. Metagaming cannot be completely eliminated from this format, but it is discouraged. Teams are not to collaborate explicitly against another team. However, teams may refer to how other teams are standing on the scoreboard, or are predicted to be standing based on guesses of identity, and make strategic, team-wide decisions on that basis. Any complaints regarding metagaming will be handled jointly by the TD and mod team."

I'm not changing rules mid-tournament, so what really up for debate is the definition of explicit collaboration. I've said the mods and I will determine that jointly. But I would argue that open speculation does not meet the standard of explicit collaboration. Also bear in mind that the Finals are a different beast than the group stages. In the later stages of the game it doesn't matter who is who, to a certain extent. Your win conditions are fixed. You need an X sized draw without Y power, and the second you make an argument based on identity, yours is revealed as well. You will never deliberately toss a solo. You will never not narrow the draw. I just see less cases late in the games where speculation of identities matter, and in the beginning any speculation should be either wholly unverifiable or blatantly obvious, depending on the player. Like we all know which power is Balki before the end of 1901.

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Re: World Cup 2018 Signups!

#498 Post by VillageIdiot » Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:50 am

goldfinger0303 wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:32 am
Like we all know which power is Balki before the end of 1901.
They better, if he makes it to Spring 1902 it’ll already be too late to stop the solo.
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Re: World Cup 2018 Signups!

#499 Post by slypups » Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:48 am

ChippeRock wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:14 am
slypups wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:39 pm
goldfinger0303 wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:06 pm
*no rule violations.

In short, by being on the site at all times and logging when he received messages from each person. Even with current anonymity settings, that can allow educated guesses over the course of weeks. Especially when other games have pauses and/or start finishing up.
I thought it was something like this. By monitoring when players post in the current game and in other games they are playing, and when they are active or showing as not-logged-in over time, you could figure out who is who over time. Still, I find such sleuthing distasteful, as it is an activity outside the game itself to try to gather information, and therefore pseudo-illicit for a game that is supposed to be self-contained (outside of monitoring and talking to your teammates in the other games). Not a fan of Chip for this.

However, in the end I think he hurt himself more than harm himself by making the reveal. Because of his commentary, I had a pretty good idea he (playing Russia) was on team South in my group, and therefore I was more comfortable drawing once he was eliminated. If I didn't know if one of the other survivors (Austria, Italy, or Germany) were team South where a draw would advance team South over my team California, I might have pushed more to solo myself, resulting in one of the other players soloing or me being eliminated and then the rest drawing, and thus advancing team South. So he really blew it by disclosing his information. He was better off manipulating without revealing what he knew.
You kidding me? How can you still be salty?

My plan would have worked if Austria realized that allowing the very strong team California into the Finals with them over the weak team Upper Mississippi was a dumb idea.

I got screwed in that he didn't want to "meta" in a tournament all about meta-gaming. Got stuck with a noob. A better player would have thrown Italy the solo to make their team's path to the Championship easier.
I make a realistic assessment and you call that salty? Guess you're still bitter. The whole theory of helping a "weaker" team advance is a poor one in my book. And it still means your team is out South, so I'm struggling to see how that helped you - shouldn't you have been focused on your own team advancing instead of insulting everyone in the game?

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Re: World Cup 2018 Signups!

#500 Post by celaph » Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:57 pm

goldfinger0303 wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:29 pm
For those teams in the Finals, I will be sending out game creations a week from Sunday. In the meantime, contact all your members (to make sure they're alive) and start strategizing on who you will want to play in what role. Remember, now is the time where you can have players and subs switch roles. PM me the details of any roster changes you may have; otherwise I will just leave them the same as they were in the Group Stages.
I have no problem waiting a bit, I am just curious if there is a revised start date.

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