M54: Not a Carrot Conspiracy

[kgray]

So you scumread rdr entirely because you crossposted with Fox?

Why do you scumread rdr at all?

What? No. I scumread both rdr and Fox because of what I said here. The crosspost is something that makes me lean more towards townreading Fox. Not enough for me to not scumread him, but it was something that I noticed and have thought about.

Thanks for the link. Didn't make an impression on me the first time I read it.

I still don't understand why those arguments don't apply to most of the EMC wagon; especially subtle ones like Damo using words only to influence it so he doesn't show up as moving a vote around; Jamie doing the "close vote" stuff just like Fox; EMC potentially bussing AND having scum v scum fight where it's free; Chaq moving at the very last minute to make things close again.

Well, I'm not saying none of them are scummy at all, and these are good things to think about. But here's why I think they're less suspicious (happy to keep discussing this though):

damo: I would absolutely not describe damo's EOD as subtle. To me, it seems too obvious to be bob's scum teammate. And why would he be afraid to move his vote around if he's going to be this blatant about pushing for the emc lynch in the end?

Jamie: I think he seems to be honestly interested in looking for vote movement when the votes are close (him asking Balki and emc to vote for someone viable, for example). And the timing of his vs. Fox's votes is less suspicious now that we know bob was scum. If Jamie were voting to protect bob, he would have voted for Chaqa instead of emc in the end, no? Because Chaqa was the second-biggest wagon behind bob.

emc: I still have suspicions about emc, but I'm not going to scumread him because he voted for the counter-wagon to himself. I think that is a reasonable thing to do as either alignment.

Chaqa: I don't know how scummy his vote was, as he claims some meta reason for his move to emc and I'm not really able to factor those arguments much. However, I do not think Chaqa makes sense as scum at this point for reasons having nothing to do with Chaqa's votes.

[BunnyGo]

What? No. I scumread both rdr and Fox because of what I said here. The crosspost is something that makes me lean more towards townreading Fox. Not enough for me to not scumread him, but it was something that I noticed and have thought about.

Thanks for the link. Didn't make an impression on me the first time I read it.

I still don't understand why those arguments don't apply to most of the EMC wagon; especially subtle ones like Damo using words only to influence it so he doesn't show up as moving a vote around; Jamie doing the "close vote" stuff just like Fox; EMC potentially bussing AND having scum v scum fight where it's free; Chaq moving at the very last minute to make things close again.

Well, I'm not saying none of them are scummy at all, and these are good things to think about. But here's why I think they're less suspicious (happy to keep discussing this though):

damo: I would absolutely not describe damo's EOD as subtle. To me, it seems too obvious to be bob's scum teammate. And why would he be afraid to move his vote around if he's going to be this blatant about pushing for the emc lynch in the end?

Jamie: I think he seems to be honestly interested in looking for vote movement when the votes are close (him asking Balki and emc to vote for someone viable, for example). And the timing of his vs. Fox's votes is less suspicious now that we know bob was scum. If Jamie were voting to protect bob, he would have voted for Chaqa instead of emc in the end, no? Because Chaqa was the second-biggest wagon behind bob.

emc: I still have suspicions about emc, but I'm not going to scumread him because he voted for the counter-wagon to himself. I think that is a reasonable thing to do as either alignment.

Chaqa: I don't know how scummy his vote was, as he claims some meta reason for his move to emc and I'm not really able to factor those arguments much. However, I do not think Chaqa makes sense as scum at this point for reasons having nothing to do with Chaqa's votes.

Awesome, thanks for your thoughts.

[Chaqa]

Kgray, regardless of your alignment this game, I really hope you continue to play with us. Definitely 2020 New Player of the Year.

[bozotheclown]

Hmmm.

Bozo, could you revisit your Bunny case from the assumption that there was no bussing?

We should find candidates who makes sense in the case where there was bussing and wasn't, and see if there's any overlap.

If you assume there was no bussing, then BunnyGo would have to be town, or possibly patient zero, and the 2 mafia who knew Bob was mafia would have to be among the 6 emc voters.

[bozotheclown]

This exchange between Fox and Balki is starting to remember me one between Teacon and Xorxes where both were town.
I think you two should take a break and look other things. Even if you are right there is another scum to catch and the Traitor. Because you are just hijacking the thread.

If one of them is right, why couldn't Foxcastle or Balki be patient zero?

[bozotheclown]

This is an interesting post. It came in a flurry of votes where Fox and Jamie voted Bob with no stated reasoning except "Let's make it closer".

Flum is not happening. I prefer emc or Bob over Chaqa.

##vote emc

I actually really dislike the Fox and Jamie posts around then on reread. Jamie's response to me asking about his vote, like I should remember everything for 30 pages is weird.

Wow, this is a very strange post by Bozo. Look familiar?

I prefer to see emc or Bob lynched over Chaqa.

##VOTE Bob

What's with prefering emc or Bob over Chaq, and then voting one with no reason?

I had been voting for emc, but Bob and Chaqa had become the top wagons, so I was indicating that while I was still OK lynching emc, I would rather see Bob lynched over Chaqa, and was voting accordingly.

[damo666]

@Everyone (Balki, I expect at least you to play but hope others do too)

I'm curious about your rankings of scummiest to least scummy of the 7 players:

EMC, Damo, rdr, Jamie, kgray, Fox, Chaq.

I'm basing mine largely on Day 3, but other impressions as well. There's at least 1 scum here, and possibly 2 (especially if we include the traitor)

My list is currently:

Scummiest EMC > kgray > Fox > Chaq > Jamie > Damo > rdr Least Scummy (the Fox to Damo range is pretty close)

EMC Chaqa rdr kgray Fox Jamie Damo

[bozotheclown]

Balki then pipes up that we should try a flash Fox wagon.

Then another post that he doesn't like any of the leading wagons.

He tries for quite a few posts to get something else going.

Then after Bozo posts that people should get on a viable wagon (calling out Balki specifically) Balki gets on a Fox vote to try...

Flum agrees with Balki but says he'll vote Bob if nothing changes.

I suggest an awesome book by an awesome math professor and writer (Jordan Ellenberg, read his stuff)

kgray comes in, says no counter wagons. Then votes emc for no reason given. This actually strikes me as possible noob scum. If we reread her eager and insightful questions as noob scum, the way I've been doing the same with Balki it might fit. Will have to do a closer reread of her.

Flum raises questions again to get a counter wagon, and Fox jumps to Chaq. Odd by both.

Balki claims his whole choice of Bob vs EMC is the "modkill town" meta. It's kinda .

I do not think the part about me "calling out Balki specifically" is accurate. I did ask emc if he was going to vote on one of his counterwagons.

[bozotheclown]

@Everyone (Balki, I expect at least you to play but hope others do too)

I'm curious about your rankings of scummiest to least scummy of the 7 players:

EMC, Damo, rdr, Jamie, kgray, Fox, Chaq.

I'm basing mine largely on Day 3, but other impressions as well. There's at least 1 scum here, and possibly 2 (especially if we include the traitor)

My list is currently:

Scummiest EMC > kgray > Fox > Chaq > Jamie > Damo > rdr Least Scummy (the Fox to Damo range is pretty close)

Everyone who has responded to Chaqa's request to list all remaining players in town to scum order has already provided this information.

[brainbomb]

Janet ran to the shore along Sauget. Her breath was heavy and steam poured from her lungs. A seagull stared at her in the darkness. It was the same silvery bird from the bay, over a hundred miles south. She could tell by its silvery wing.

Suddenly she remembered the carnage she had escaped. Freedom was surely dead, along with everyone in that lobby. She stared at the bird helplessly, and it looked just as scared as her.

Day 4 Vote Tally
Balki Bartokomous (3) Foxcastle BunnyGo Jamiet99uk
rdrivera2005 (3) Fluminator xorxes kgray
xorxes (2) rdrivera2005 Chaqa
BunnyGo (1) bozotheclown
e.m.c^42 (1) damo666
Foxcastle (1) Balki Bartokomous

End-votes (0/12)

Non-votes
e.m.c^42


Emc is scheduled to be modkilled

[bozotheclown]

What? No. I scumread both rdr and Fox because of what I said here. The crosspost is something that makes me lean more towards townreading Fox. Not enough for me to not scumread him, but it was something that I noticed and have thought about.

Thanks for the link. Didn't make an impression on me the first time I read it.

I still don't understand why those arguments don't apply to most of the EMC wagon; especially subtle ones like Damo using words only to influence it so he doesn't show up as moving a vote around; Jamie doing the "close vote" stuff just like Fox; EMC potentially bussing AND having scum v scum fight where it's free; Chaq moving at the very last minute to make things close again.

Well, I'm not saying none of them are scummy at all, and these are good things to think about. But here's why I think they're less suspicious (happy to keep discussing this though):

damo: I would absolutely not describe damo's EOD as subtle. To me, it seems too obvious to be bob's scum teammate. And why would he be afraid to move his vote around if he's going to be this blatant about pushing for the emc lynch in the end?

Jamie: I think he seems to be honestly interested in looking for vote movement when the votes are close (him asking Balki and emc to vote for someone viable, for example). And the timing of his vs. Fox's votes is less suspicious now that we know bob was scum. If Jamie were voting to protect bob, he would have voted for Chaqa instead of emc in the end, no? Because Chaqa was the second-biggest wagon behind bob.

emc: I still have suspicions about emc, but I'm not going to scumread him because he voted for the counter-wagon to himself. I think that is a reasonable thing to do as either alignment.

Chaqa: I don't know how scummy his vote was, as he claims some meta reason for his move to emc and I'm not really able to factor those arguments much. However, I do not think Chaqa makes sense as scum at this point for reasons having nothing to do with Chaqa's votes.

I remember damo helping get me mislynched once when he was scum doing something equally as blatant. I looked it up and it was D1 of M46. I was one vote behind scum Flavius, 7-6, 3 minutes before EOD, when scum damo posted this:

Vote bozo now

For some reason, 2 town responded by immediately voting for me, leading to me getting mislynched.

Compare this to how damo ended D3:

Back to emc folks

1 more switch required

Maybe damo is willing to blatantly try to save a scum teammate at EOD because he knows people will think it is too obvious to be scum.

[bozotheclown]

Role

Which role would be more valuable at this point?

I don't understand the point of this question. Clearly both killer and godfather more valuable than goon. You are beginning to worry me Xorxes.

This post concerned me about damo. damo usually pays close attention to the setup, I find it hard to believe he would not know as either town or scum that the GF role no longer has any extra value and that the killer was never more valuable than the goon.

[Balki Bartokomous]

I think those are good points by Bozo.

I think the three flips I’d most like to see right now would be Fox, Damo, and rdrivera.

[bozotheclown]

This was damo's antepenultimate post of D3, which was on page 117:

No time to read last 10 pp.

A one sentence summary of why the sudden Bob wagon pls.

However, in damo's preantepenultimate post of D3, 21 minutes earlier, he answered a question from page 107:

@Damo:

Why were you so angry about people voting Chaqa on D1? What exactly was it about Chaqa's EOD1 activity that caused you to suddenly flip to scumreading him?

1. I wasn't angry. I didn't see the case on Chaqa and did not understand why he was attracting votes.

2. Tbh can't remember. I'd have to go check. However catching up at mo. The above quote is where I am up to so this response it a bit 'Damius'.

Did damo really not make any progress catching up in this 21 minutes, or was he trying to dissuade the Bob wagon?

[bozotheclown]

EMC day 3 voting is very odd. He keeps to minor wagons when he could be voting Bob to relieve pressure on himself and only votes Bob once it was inevitable one of the 2 were for the chop. Also , why didn't Bob vote EMC?

All this indicates to me EMC is a more valuable scum than Bob.

##vote EMC

Join me. I'm pretty well convinced.

The things damo points out here are things that did make me suspect emc, namely the late emc vote for Bob and Bob twice choosing to vote for an emc counterwagon, but maybe damo is just using these things knowing they make a town emc look bad. If damo is scum who was trying to save Bob, then emc is town.

[bozotheclown]

Since there is not much interest in BunnyGo, I am going to change to damo. I now think it is more likely damo is the scum between him and emc.

##VOTE damo

[rdrivera2005]

@Everyone (Balki, I expect at least you to play but hope others do too)

I'm curious about your rankings of scummiest to least scummy of the 7 players:

EMC, Damo, rdr, Jamie, kgray, Fox, Chaq.

I'm basing mine largely on Day 3, but other impressions as well. There's at least 1 scum here, and possibly 2 (especially if we include the traitor)

My list is currently:

Scummiest EMC > kgray > Fox > Chaq > Jamie > Damo > rdr Least Scummy (the Fox to Damo range is pretty close)

I am happy someone started to see what I am seeing about kgray. His move from this at night 3

Rdrivera:
• Rdr’s vote for Bob when only xorxes was voting Bob, and when Chaqa expressed interest in voting Bob, makes me think rdr is town. I wouldn’t expect him to get this wagon going if he were bob’s teammate.

to this at day

Originally I though rdr helping to start bob's wagon was towny, but that was pretty early during the day when there was plenty of time for someone else to become a wagon. And, rdr didn't even put bob in the lead at that point, and as soon as bob was in the lead rdr changed his vote. He did provide reasonable explanations for his votes when he switched them. I think rdr is capable of doing this as scum, though, and I think rdr jumped off of bob as soon as he had a reason to, and then found reasons not to get back on bob's wagon. I think rdr's votes are scummy.

It look like trying to find a reason to vote top wagon. Also, I didn't move when Bob was in thre lead (it was tied) and she never addressed me a single question.

Anyway, it isn't easy to sort this list, I keep going back and forth.
I started the day with Fox at the top but after his exchange with Balki I am not sure, it look like town fighting back.
I started the day with Damo as a solid townread but after re-reading him it just vanished, it's now a big question mark.
EMC also vanished (again). I voted him yesterday after an exchange with him that makes me think he was scum (interesting none of my voters take this into consideration). But being the counter wagon to a scum lynch makes him less likely to be scum. I hope he start playing again, but if he didn't get back he is probably the best lynch on this group.
Jamiet never striked me as scummy this game, his vote to make wagons closer isn't unusual and I do this on a regular basis as town to generate info.
I have been townreading Chaqa since D1 and Bob tryng to get him as a counter reinforces this read.
I will obviously not include me.

So, right now it's:

EMC>kgrayFox>Damo>>>Jamiet>Chaqa

[Jamiet99uk]

@Jamie: What do you think of EMC today? Do you think he's townier now?

No?

He hasn't posted today, so my read on him hasn't changed, and I still think he is scum.

[Jamiet99uk]

@Everyone (Balki, I expect at least you to play but hope others do too)

I'm curious about your rankings of scummiest to least scummy of the 7 players:

EMC, Damo, rdr, Jamie, kgray, Fox, Chaq.

I'm basing mine largely on Day 3, but other impressions as well. There's at least 1 scum here, and possibly 2 (especially if we include the traitor)

My list is currently:

Scummiest EMC > kgray > Fox > Chaq > Jamie > Damo > rdr Least Scummy (the Fox to Damo range is pretty close)

First of all, why this grouping of seven? Where are Balki and Flum and Xorxes on this list?

Second of all:

SCUM:: EMC > CHAQA > FOXCASTLE > KGRAY > RDRIVERA > DAMO > JAMIE ::LEAST SCUM

[Jamiet99uk]

Se7en hours to go and EMC is once again in the Modkill zone.

Some of you are townreading this waste of atoms, for some reason?

Nah.