Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

[ssorenn]

Love being very different than you.

[Jamiet99uk]

The Israeli government is an ethono-fascist aggressor, which currently holds thousands of square miles of land under illegal military occupation, and which has illegally developed nuclear weapons. Arab people living as "citizens" in their territory are disenfranchised and routinely persecuted.

Israel are the bad guys. They make North Korea and Iran look like stable, democratic regimes.

[Stressedlines]

Dq thread

[Telamor]

Love being very different than you.

[ssorenn]

The Israeli government is an ethono-fascist aggressor, which currently holds thousands of square miles of land under illegal military occupation, and which has illegally developed nuclear weapons. Arab people living as "citizens" in their territory are disenfranchised and routinely persecuted.

Israel are the bad guys. They make North Korea and Iran look like stable, democratic regimes.

Haha. Please step on a landmine.

[Jamiet99uk]

The Israeli government is an ethono-fascist aggressor, which currently holds thousands of square miles of land under illegal military occupation, and which has illegally developed nuclear weapons. Arab people living as "citizens" in their territory are disenfranchised and routinely persecuted.

Israel are the bad guys. They make North Korea and Iran look like stable, democratic regimes.

Haha. Please step on a landmine.

No. I won't. There aren't many landmines in Durham or London where I spend most of my time. Anyway, don't be an ass.

My point stands. Israel is a fascist state which violates international law (such as it exists). They are a violent military occupier of land which is not theirs, and they treat Arabs, even Arabs who are given citizenship, like dogs. Few states anywhere on the globe practise such a blatantly fascistic regime.

The new "nation state" law, which referenced in the OP of this thread, legitimises this fascism, and supports the persecution and subjugation of non-Jewish people. Anyone (even Jewish people) who opposes these laws is denounced as a "traitor". Ruling Likud party members of parliament (MKs) have called for anyone who opposes the government to have their citizenship revoked. Other Likud MKs are actively campaigning for the separation of the legislature and the judiciary (a concept known as "separation of powers, which is absolutely central to the rule of law) to be ended, and for the country's courts to be directly controlled by the government. There is a growing cult of militarism and worship of the military as a class of warrior heroes, which is openly pushed onto young people by the education ministry.

Look at all of this and tell me it is not fascism.

[Octavious]

When a country's people live in constant fear of attack and everyone has friends and family who have served, it would be extremely odd if the military wasn't looked at with a deep sense of appreciation. Nor is there anything remotely wrong with treating those who defend your freedom as warrior heroes. I don't imagine anyone here is under any illusion as to what would happen to Israel if their military ceased to exist.

As far as I'm aware Israel remains a democracy and its parliament contains a wealth of elected officials who vigorously oppose the current government. There are elements about the country I am not at all happy with, but it seems a long way from fascism to me.

[ssorenn]

Well oct keeps alive the idea of intelligent brits.

Jamie, swan dive off a bridge, where there’s no water?

[Telamor]

I think your view of the Israeli military is somewhat rose-tinted there Oct. While I'm not going to deny the IDF's necessity to Israel's continued existence that doesn't mean they should be idealised. The man guarding Israeli citizens can simultaneously be the man forcing two teenagers to under go limb amputations. Performing one action doesn't negate the other and the IDF needs to be held accountable for both. Hero-worship and lionising them makes matters worse.

As for Israel being a democracy I'd say you're partially right, Israel has most of the facets of democracy but is missing a few key elements, such as equality between citizens and the right to private property.

[Octavious]

I think you are underestimating the people's ability for nuance, Telamor. I don't think there are many who would deny that the military contains its fair share of evil sods. That doesn't mean, however, that a default position of respect and admiration for your servicemen is inappropriate.

I'm curious as to why you believe this world make matters worse. In my experience militaries who do not have the respect of the people tend to behave a lot worse. Soldiers who grew up in a society that treats its military as heroes tend to try and live up to it. You swear the oath, wear the uniform, salute the colours, and you're part of something that you'd think twice before doing anything that might shame it.

[Jamiet99uk]

Ssorenn, would you cut the violent personal abuse please? It's unpleasant and unnecessary.

[Jamiet99uk]

Octavious - do you believe that apartheid-era South Africa was a democracy?

[Stressedlines]

Dont israeli arabs vote? I thought they did and this law wont change that unless i read it wrong

So if that is true then making a reach for south africa ia just that....a reach

[Telamor]

Defaulting to respect and praise for the military makes criticism much harder and reform less likely to occur. There's the social pressure it places on people not to come forwards over issues of abuse in case they besmirch the good name of the military. It creates a naturally lethargic approach to reform with excuses such as 'a few bad apples' being trotted out to avoid taking action. It also sets the military above the average citizen by equating membership of the military with special status.

In the case of the IDF I'd guess many of their supporters probably don't care that they're killing civilians, enforcing amputations on teenagers, or blowing up villages because those are things they do to Arabs. As far as protecting the privileged position of the ethnically Jewish in Israel the IDF do a pretty good job. My concerns about the fundamental equality of humans, the right of all to adequate health care, homes, and self-determination are not relevant as they may call into question this position of privilege.

[Octavious]

A military with a lethargic approach to reform? Imagine that! It'd be like every other military that's ever existed :p.

Also the military should be set above the average citizen and deserve and get special status.

[Stressedlines]

im curious, what type of reform are you trying to impose on the military?

A Military can and does change, but it should not be some breeding ground (or testing ground) for social reform. Moral in the Military, may be one of the 3 most important elements to a fighting force

[Randomizer]

I'm wondering why there is criticism of Israel's military that has review boards to examine and in the past punished violations. While people might disagree with the decisions, there is a process in place to crack down on illegal actions.

There is no equivalent criticism of Hamas and it's policy of executing Palestinians that criticize Hamas or for other reasons. There isn't even an outcry for them to stop.

[Jamiet99uk]

Dont israeli arabs vote? I thought they did and this law wont change that unless i read it wrong

So if that is true then making a reach for south africa ia just that....a reach

They have the vote (if they are full citizens), but they are a minority. This new law which has been passed, declares that only Jewish citizens of Israel have the right to self determination, and that Arab citizens explicitly do not. That is very disturbing if you ask me.

[ssorenn]

Nope.

[Stressedlines]

Jamie. There is minority groups in all nations. Many are treated worse than that. For the record not a.big fan of israel but they are hardly the worst