Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

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Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

#61 Post by Telamor » Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:13 pm

Hey Baskineli,

I disagree strongly with your argument that Israel has no second class citizens, when I was in East Jerusalem I encountered a load of people who were victimised by the Israeli state because they were not Jewish. I was told by Greeks about how the holy sepulchre is shut down by the govt. Whenever they want the Greek Orthodox church to sell them land, I talked to Armenians who said the state aimed to make living in the old city untenable so they would leave and Orthodox Jewish communities could take over their homes. I spoke to Palestinians who despite being born in Jerusalem were denied citizenship and were forced to live on residency permits that could be withdrawn on the whims of the state. I met business owners who'd had licences withdrawn and their business wound up so Orthodox families could take over the building and the children of Palestinian emigrants disallowed from returning to their parent's homeland because of the Israeli state's stance on right of return.

I also disagree with your characterisation of Gaza and the West Bank as foreign , independent entities. Given that residents of Gaza have to ask Israel's permission to seek medical treatment in the West Bank, have no control over their borders. Palestinians in area C of the West Bank are subject to forcible transfer by the Israeli state to make room for settlements, with their homes often forcibly demolished. Dismissing the plight of Palestinians living in the occupied territories is like Churchill blaming the Indians for the Bengal famine.

I think you've also mischaracterised the Jerusalem situation. Most international objection to Israel taking Jerusalem as its capital is that they don't recognise Israel's 1967 territorial expansion.

Sorry for being so full of objections but I think that this declaration as well as Israel's behaviour towards the Palestinians is unfair, unjust, and violently damaging towards the Palestinian people.
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Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

#62 Post by Baskineli » Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:52 pm

Telamor wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:13 pm
Hey Baskineli,

I disagree strongly with your argument that Israel has no second class citizens, when I was in East Jerusalem I encountered a load of people who were victimised by the Israeli state because they were not Jewish. I was told by Greeks about how the holy sepulchre is shut down by the govt. Whenever they want the Greek Orthodox church to sell them land, I talked to Armenians who said the state aimed to make living in the old city untenable so they would leave and Orthodox Jewish communities could take over their homes. I spoke to Palestinians who despite being born in Jerusalem were denied citizenship and were forced to live on residency permits that could be withdrawn on the whims of the state. I met business owners who'd had licences withdrawn and their business wound up so Orthodox families could take over the building and the children of Palestinian emigrants disallowed from returning to their parent's homeland because of the Israeli state's stance on right of return.
You may disagree, it is your right, however all your examples are irrelevant:
1. Greek Orthodox Church holds a lot of land in Israel, and it has nothing to do with the question of "second class citizens". The issue with closing the church began when they stopped paying taxes (just like any other organization in Israel pays) and there was a big issue about it. You can read more about it and how it was-reopened here:
https://jpost.com/Israel-News/Church-of ... ion-543793

2. Jerusalem is a divided city. Part of it is located in Israel, other parts are located under PA rule. People who were born in Israel, get an Israeli citizenship. People who were born under PA, get Palestinian citizenship.

3. The children of Palestinian immigrants are Palestinian, not Israeli. They get Palestinian passports, and not Israeli passports. If one of your parents is Israeli, you get an Israeli passport, no matter where you were born.

Telamor wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:13 pm
I also disagree with your characterisation of Gaza and the West Bank as foreign , independent entities. Given that residents of Gaza have to ask Israel's permission to seek medical treatment in the West Bank, have no control over their borders. Palestinians in area C of the West Bank are subject to forcible transfer by the Israeli state to make room for settlements, with their homes often forcibly demolished. Dismissing the plight of Palestinians living in the occupied territories is like Churchill blaming the Indians for the Bengal famine.
Gaza have their own government, their own police, their own army. Israel has no claims over Gaza. Gaza also has two borders - one with Israel, the other with Egypt. Israeli border with Gaza was closed due to Hamas terror activities.

But, once again - all these cases are irrelevant and have NOTHING to do with Israeli law, since these people are not Israeli citizens and they don't live in Israel. Gaza is not Israel. Palestinian territories are not Israel. The people protesting against it are not Palestinians, but Israeli minorities. You really have to understand this. It is an internal Israeli issue, and has nothing to do with Palestinians.
Telamor wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:13 pm
I think you've also mischaracterised the Jerusalem situation. Most international objection to Israel taking Jerusalem as its capital is that they don't recognise Israel's 1967 territorial expansion.
None of these nations did not exist when Jerusalem was our capital, more than 2000 years ago. Besides, the Basic Law: Jerusalem, was passed almost 40 years ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_Law

Telamor wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:13 pm
Sorry for being so full of objections but I think that this declaration as well as Israel's behaviour towards the Palestinians is unfair, unjust, and violently damaging towards the Palestinian people.
I find it astonishing how you fail to see that this law and discussion has NOTHING to do with Palestinians. This is an internal Israeli law, and just like almost any other law, only applicable to citizens or people who are located inside the country.

The uproar in Israel against this law is coming from Druze (Israeli citizens) and Israeli Arabs (Israeli citizens). Not everything that happens in Israel has something to do with Palestinians.

Israel is a state of law. All citizens abide the same law. All citizens have the same rights.
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Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

#63 Post by flash2015 » Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:49 pm

Hi Baskinell,

I appreciate your opinion, but I have some questions:
(1) If changing the law doesn't change anything, why change it at all? I would argue that the point will be to make it easier to change some of the things you say won't change in the future.

(2) I guess a general question - where do you think this is all leading to? Where do you want it to lean to? At least from my understanding, Gaza is largely a prison (it has been under blockade for over a decade) and the West Bank is unviable as a separate state given how its current Swiss cheese appearance due to the settlements and its limited access to water.

At least from an outsiders perspective it does look like at least many in Israel don't really want peace and are looking to create the "facts on the ground" to eventually annex the West Bank (which I understand is described in the Likud party founding documents). Any Palestinians that still remain will be kept effectively in mini ghettos and not be able to vote because they won't be Israeli citizens.

You may say that the Palestinians just have to stop resisting and they will get there state...but at least from my perspective it appears like Israel constantly is undermining Palestinian leadership. It is going to be hard enough as it is for a Palestinian leader to convince the population to accept a peace deal. Constantly weakening the leaders isn't helping.

I may be misunderstand, everyone just wants peace and this is all just a continuation of the "Iron Wall" strategy to keep Israel safe. Perhaps it does keep Israeli's safer in the short-term but I question whether it is the right approach to achieve a lasting peace. A definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing again and again and expecting a different result. If Israel really does want peace, perhaps it is time for a new strategy?

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Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

#64 Post by Baskineli » Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:26 pm

flash2015 wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:49 pm
Hi Baskinell,

I appreciate your opinion, but I have some questions:
(1) If changing the law doesn't change anything, why change it at all? I would argue that the point will be to make it easier to change some of the things you say won't change in the future.
I believe this is a preparation for Israeli constitution. Ultimately, all these basic laws will be united together and called a constitution. Besides, the law did not change. These things were in Israeli Declaration of Independence, but IDI is not a law and has no legal status - it was stated on a lot of occasions by Israeli Supreme court. So, there was a need to make this basic law.

flash2015 wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:49 pm
(2) I guess a general question - where do you think this is all leading to? Where do you want it to lean to? At least from my understanding, Gaza is largely a prison (it has been under blockade for over a decade) and the West Bank is unviable as a separate state given how its current Swiss cheese appearance due to the settlements and its limited access to water.
You know, during 1970's, Israeli Jews had friends in Gaza. Jews would go to Gazan market, buy vegetables and go back to wherever they lived. In fact, up until 1920 or so, there was Jewish population in Gaza.

During the years, and especially in the last decade, Gaza is the main source of Palestinian attacks at Israel. Rockets from Gaza to Israeli cities are a routine - and I am talking about cities of 20-60km radius from Gaza (mostly close to 20km, but Hamas is capable to reach more than that).

Frankly, I don't know where it's going. It's a stalemate. The Palestinian leadership (PA) do not bulge a single centimeter in their stance towards Israel. They are not willing to negotiate without prior conditions.

There is also a very interesting shift in Israel. Contrary to what people think, Israel is moving LEFT, not RIGHT, if you look at it long-term. You should look at what the LEFT parties said and did during 1970-1990, and see that the Likud (the main right-wing party) has adapted most of the left stances of the years.

I believe that Netanyahu understands that under existing conditions, there can be no agreement. Abbas also understands it, so both sides are trying to change the macro-situation. Netanyahu is working hard to create more international allies, and he is doing a great job at it. Israel's ties with India, China, some African countries, South American countries and so on - are becoming very strong. Interestingly, we have a much warmer situation with quite a few Arab countries, although informal - such as Saudia.

Abbas is trying to score points as well - via UN, mostly. He has lost the Suni world, but the Shia world is strongly with him.

I don't think this conflict will be solved in an agreement. I think it will de-escalate over the years (decades?) to the point where it would no longer be relevant and we will learn to live side by side.

flash2015 wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:49 pm
At least from an outsiders perspective it does look like at least many in Israel don't really want peace and are looking to create the "facts on the ground" to eventually annex the West Bank (which I understand is described in the Likud party founding documents). Any Palestinians that still remain will be kept effectively in mini ghettos and not be able to vote because they won't be Israeli citizens.
This is certainly not where Israel is going. There is a VERY strong consensus for the two state solution. Yes, there are some extremists that want to annex the West Bank under some 'creative' legislature, but they are really a loud and small minority (Benett being the main one).

Likud and Netanyahu realized that striving for peace at ANY cost (like the previous government did) does not bring peace. Look at Gaza - no Israeli control, and instead of building paradise, the Palestinians started launch attacks on Israel, which led to the blockade. Likud is a liberal party (that does not always behaves like one), and under Likud's government, there is a strong economical improvement. In fact, we just now moved to -AA rating at S&P.

flash2015 wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:49 pm
You may say that the Palestinians just have to stop resisting and they will get there state...but at least from my perspective it appears like Israel constantly is undermining Palestinian leadership. It is going to be hard enough as it is for a Palestinian leader to convince the population to accept a peace deal. Constantly weakening the leaders isn't helping.
I don't think there is a war between PA/Gaza and Israel. It's an ongoing conflict. Peace cannot be negotiated, because under existing leaderships and situation, it's just not achievable - and I am not only talking about Abbas/Hamas/Netanyahu. I believe the conflict will continue for many more years, with less and less fatalities over time.

Also, don't forget that the Palestinians are not just one body. Hamas and PA do not agree on a lot of basic issues. Don't forget how the executed PA staff in 2009, when they took over Gaza ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOWNNvhZ0e8 - VERY HARD TO WATCH).

There are a lot of internal Palestinian issues that need to be solved, before we can actually negotiate.

flash2015 wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:49 pm
I may be misunderstand, everyone just wants peace and this is all just a continuation of the "Iron Wall" strategy to keep Israel safe. Perhaps it does keep Israeli's safer in the short-term but I question whether it is the right approach to achieve a lasting peace. A definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing again and again and expecting a different result. If Israel really does want peace, perhaps it is time for a new strategy?
Not everyone wants peace. PA (Fatah) probably does. Israel does. Hamas does not. Please understand, Hamas, unlike PA, is religious organization. It is moved by the will to free Palestine from infidels.

I think that Israel is trying a new strategy. Up until 7-8 years ago, there was a really strong will to reach an ultimate agreement with the Palestinians. It failed for more than 20 years, so Israel is trying something new - deescalate the conflict over time, by making more allies and increasing international influence, signalling Palestinians that while Israel is going forward, they are not. Maybe this will change the way Palestinians think of this conflict, unite them under a reasonable government and reach a long term agreement.
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Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

#65 Post by flash2015 » Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:26 pm

Thankyou for the detailed response. Here is my biggest problem in my believing that there are only a small number of extremists who want to annex the West Bank. As of 2015, there were 400K people living in West Bank settlements outside East Jerusalem and at least another 180K living in East Jerusalem (from 2003 - probably a lot more now).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Populatio ... _West_Bank

Haaratz estimate is lower (I am not sure exactly where the discrepancy is) though it still shows a rapid rise in settler populations:

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.pr ... -1.5482213

Any realistic scenario for a two state solution will require a lot of these people to move. I remember the big stink when Ariel Sharon tried to move only a few thousand settlers from Gaza. This will be several orders of magnitude harder. And the longer you let this go on the harder this is going to be. How many will we have in another 10 years? A million? 10 years after that? I just don't see how you can realistically unwind this to create the Palestinian state.

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Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

#66 Post by Randomizer » Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:18 am

"Any realistic scenario for a two state solution will require a lot of these people to move. I remember the big stink when Ariel Sharon tried to move only a few thousand settlers from Gaza. This will be several orders of magnitude harder. And the longer you let this go on the harder this is going to be. How many will we have in another 10 years? A million? 10 years after that? I just don't see how you can realistically unwind this to create the Palestinian state."

A real world example was when the British government ended its rule of India and Pakistan, even more Hindus and Muslims crossed over to the country that was the predominant religion. It wasn't completely peaceful and some stayed behind, but it possible if both sides want it.

The key is both sides need to reach an agreement that they can keep. Having one side maintain that all the land is theirs and that any agreement is a step to that goal as still in the Hamas charter that they took from the PLO makes it unlikely. Teaching children to kill others because they are subhuman as in Palestinian schools needs to end.

Just blaming Israel for the problem without addressing the Palestinian problems isn't going to work.
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Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

#67 Post by flash2015 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:26 am

Randomizer wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:18 am
"Any realistic scenario for a two state solution will require a lot of these people to move. I remember the big stink when Ariel Sharon tried to move only a few thousand settlers from Gaza. This will be several orders of magnitude harder. And the longer you let this go on the harder this is going to be. How many will we have in another 10 years? A million? 10 years after that? I just don't see how you can realistically unwind this to create the Palestinian state."

A real world example was when the British government ended its rule of India and Pakistan, even more Hindus and Muslims crossed over to the country that was the predominant religion. It wasn't completely peaceful and some stayed behind, but it possible if both sides want it.

The key is both sides need to reach an agreement that they can keep. Having one side maintain that all the land is theirs and that any agreement is a step to that goal as still in the Hamas charter that they took from the PLO makes it unlikely. Teaching children to kill others because they are subhuman as in Palestinian schools needs to end.

Just blaming Israel for the problem without addressing the Palestinian problems isn't going to work.
You probably should have chosen a better example. The violence that occurred during the India Pakistan partition was a catastrophe. Between 200K and 2M people died:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/long ... 88131.html

You think if there are 1M+ Israeli's living in the West Bank believing they should be there because of their God given right is somehow going to be easier?

Sure the Hamas charter is bad and I agree it should be changed...but so is the Likud one:

https://www.juancole.com/2014/08/charte ... inian.html

I was trying to have a genuine discussion here. However, I see you have fallen back into the usual Israel discussion tropes of "look over there"/"what about X". I never **said** that the Palestinians don't have there own issues. And whatever Palestinian issues there are doesn't change the fact that making Swiss cheese out of the West Bank where Palestians have to go through Israeli checkpoints every half mile doesn't appear to most sane people as something amenable to long term peace.

We have learnt from history that this behaviour just **doesn't work**. We saw what happened with the crippling punishment inflicted on Germany after WW I and how it helped lead to WW II. This is why the allies worked hard to help rebuild Germany after WW II. Keeping up the crippling punishments on the Palestinians is likely to be just as effective as the crippling sanctions were on Germany.

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Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

#68 Post by Baskineli » Mon Aug 06, 2018 4:08 am

We can continue to discuss the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in a new thread.

Please understand that the issue that opened the thread has nothing to do with this conflict. It is an internal Israeli issue and people opposing this basic law are Israeli Arabs and Druze (for different reasons as well).

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Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

#69 Post by Octavious » Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:12 am

flash2015 wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:26 am
We have learnt from history that this behaviour just **doesn't work**. We saw what happened with the crippling punishment inflicted on Germany after WW I and how it helped lead to WW II. This is why the allies worked hard to help rebuild Germany after WW II. Keeping up the crippling punishments on the Palestinians is likely to be just as effective as the crippling sanctions were on Germany.
The problem is not that this behaviour doesn't work, but that it does. Or at least it works well enough. The status quo in which Israel's enemies are satisfied with throwing rocks and launching the occasional easily swatted away missile barrage is one they can live with. Even a suicide bomber who slips through the net, whilst tragic, is a price that can be paid. Unless the Palestinians ever get their hands on a method of hurting Israel all their venom achieves is to strengthen the argument that a true peace will be less beneficial to the average Israeli, in terms of providing security at least, than perpetual minor conflict. The perpetual conflict also suits the interests of Hamas, who will be in power as long as it continues.

That is why true peace is so hard to achieve. None of the powers that be really want it.

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Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

#70 Post by Telamor » Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:04 pm

Baskineli wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 4:08 am
We can continue to discuss the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in a new thread.

Please understand that the issue that opened the thread has nothing to do with this conflict. It is an internal Israeli issue and people opposing this basic law are Israeli Arabs and Druze (for different reasons as well).
The declaration, the legal ratification of Israel's position as an ethnostate, has everything to do with the conflict. Calling it an internal Israeli issue and trying to exclude the West Bank and Gaza when both are occupied by Israel is ridiculous.

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Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

#71 Post by Baskineli » Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:21 pm

Telamor wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:04 pm
Baskineli wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 4:08 am
We can continue to discuss the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in a new thread.

Please understand that the issue that opened the thread has nothing to do with this conflict. It is an internal Israeli issue and people opposing this basic law are Israeli Arabs and Druze (for different reasons as well).
The declaration, the legal ratification of Israel's position as an ethnostate, has everything to do with the conflict. Calling it an internal Israeli issue and trying to exclude the West Bank and Gaza when both are occupied by Israel is ridiculous.
Israel is ethnostate by UN decision since 1948, just like Palestine is ethnostate by exactly the same UN resolution.

The law in discussion does not apply to Palestinian citizens, since this is an Israeli law.

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Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

#72 Post by Baskineli » Mon Aug 06, 2018 2:42 pm

You really have to understand that not everything in Israel has to do with Palestinians. You really have to understand that there are more than just Jewish citizens in Israel, and most of them are not Palestinian citizens. A lot of them are not even Arabs (such as Druze).

Israel was created as a Jewish state. It is in the UN declaration, it is in our Declaration of Independence.
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Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

#73 Post by Jamiet99uk » Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:46 pm

Baskinelli, do you recognise Gaza and the West Bank as foreign countries?

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Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

#74 Post by ssorenn » Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:10 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:46 pm
Baskinelli, do you recognise Gaza and the West Bank as foreign countries?
Nope

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Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

#75 Post by Jamiet99uk » Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:31 pm

Hello Baskinelli, when did your name change to ssorenn?

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Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

#76 Post by Stressedlines » Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:26 pm

Jamie. He said he did. However he also said start a new thread on that topic. The topic of this thread was about a law. I think you started the thread

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Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

#77 Post by Baskineli » Tue Aug 07, 2018 5:58 am

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:46 pm
Baskinelli, do you recognise Gaza and the West Bank as foreign countries?
Is this discussion about Gaza and West Bank, or about "Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel"?

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Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

#78 Post by Telamor » Wed Aug 08, 2018 2:40 am

To being things back on to topic then Baskelli do you believe Arabs in Israel do not deserve the right to self determination?

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Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

#79 Post by Baskineli » Wed Aug 08, 2018 4:17 am

Telamor wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 2:40 am
To being things back on to topic then Baskelli do you believe Arabs in Israel do not deserve the right to self determination?

It's not self determination. It's NATIONAL self determination. It is not a civil right that applies to a single person.

"The right to exercise national self-determination in the State of Israel is unique to the Jewish people".

Yes, since Israel was created as a Jewish state, no other nationality has the right for national self determination in Israel. IE, Arabs can't proclaim it being an Arab state.

This is not different from many other countries. Jews can't proclaim Japan is a Jewish state, Mexicans can't proclaim China is a Mexican state and Russians can't proclaim Mongolia is a Russian state.

It does not mean that that a Jew in Japan who became Japanese citizen, will have less rights than other Japanese citizens.

Israel being a Jewish country, does not imply that Arabs or Druze that have Israeli citizenship, have less rights than Jewish citizens of Israel.
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Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

#80 Post by Telamor » Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:48 pm

How would you define who is and is not a Jew? Because as far as I can see using ethnicity rather than citizenship as the defining quality of right to self determination you are creating an ethnic hierarchy that devalues those not of your choice ethnicity.

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