Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

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Telamor
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Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

#1 Post by Telamor » Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:54 am

In other news Arabic is no longer an official language in Israel and has been downgraded to 'special status' making Hebrew the only official language of Israel.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/ ... -state-law
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ssorenn
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Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

#2 Post by ssorenn » Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:52 am

Yay

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Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

#3 Post by kaner406 » Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:23 pm

Yay? Why are you invested in this issue to the point of 'yay'?

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Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

#4 Post by ssorenn » Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:53 pm

I believe in Israel.

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Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

#5 Post by Telamor » Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:12 pm

How do you think this benefits Israel then ssorenn?

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Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

#6 Post by Octavious » Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:05 pm

On the face of it this seems to be Israel holding up two fingers to Hamas and their ilk who have long questioned Israel's right to exist. If you were in charitable mood you could call it an act of defiance against those who wish their destruction. If you were feeling less charitable you could describe it as an act of aggression against the Arabs of Israel.

In reality will it have much of an impact on the non Jewish population of Israel? Probably not. But it is another step backwards in the peace process which seems to be par for the course these days. Sad times.
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Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

#7 Post by Randomizer » Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:29 pm

Since similar terms are found in the constitutions of most European countries or are considered normal in Saudi Arabia (home and holy places of Islam), there really isn't anything to complain about there.

The peace process wasn't going forward before this was even being considered. You can't consider this a backwards step as long as the Palestinians still have the complete destruction of Israel as part of their government documents and still refuse to remove it.
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Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

#8 Post by ssorenn » Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:28 pm

So, fuck the Arabs is the answer!?! Yep. That’s about it.

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Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

#9 Post by Telamor » Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:25 pm

That's a bit of a miss categorisation there Randomiser. This doesn't apply to PA Palestinians it only applies to Israeli Arabs. Citizens of Israel born and raised in Israel. The change means Israel now has legal second-class citizens albeit they were functionally second class citizens before but at least Israel paid lipservice to the idea of equality.
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Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

#10 Post by Randomizer » Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:59 pm

There are no changes in rights or status for Israeli Arabs. It's not like they are not able to continue as before.

It's not like Puerto Rico which is a commonwealth of the United States without the right to vote in US elections or have a say in US laws that are forced on them by the US government. Or Saudi Arabia where women have less rights then men.

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Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

#11 Post by Telamor » Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:44 am

With Arabic no longer treated as an official language Israel is no longer obliged to provide road signs, govt. Services, legal support, or education in Arabic. All of which will serve to widen the already brutal gap between life as a Jewish Israeli and life as an Arab Israeli.
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Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

#12 Post by Randomizer » Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:28 am

English is no longer an official language either, but I really doubt that they would stop support in that language. It's not like in the US and European countries that have a single official language.

In Arizona in the US a contract version is only legally enforceable if written in English according to the court. If a company provides a translated version to a customer in Spanish, any differences that a Spanish only reading person signs are invalid. So a company can defraud people that can't read and understand the entire contract in English.

That Israel is a Jewish state was defined by the UN when they divided the British Palestinian Mandate into a 2 Arab states (Jordan and Palestine) and a Jewish state. The reason for an Arab push against Israel was when the former Soviet Union allowed emigration to Israel, the demographic shift had Jews overtaking the growth of the Arab population in Israel. No longer able to wait until they were the majority population, you had a Palestinian uprising.
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Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

#13 Post by Telamor » Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:10 pm

The Soviet Union was neither here nor there in relation to the Palestinian uprising. I did a pretty in-depth account of the conflict somewhere on here once.

The problem with this declaration is it kills a two state solution and guarantees the Israel's Jewish population becomes a ruling minority in South Africa style set up.
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Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

#14 Post by Stressedlines » Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:18 pm

Israel will.do what they want cuz nobody will stop them.from.doing it.

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Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

#15 Post by Octavious » Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:30 pm

Telamor wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:10 pm
The problem with this declaration is it kills a two state solution and guarantees the Israel's Jewish population becomes a ruling minority in South Africa style set up.
How so?
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Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

#16 Post by Telamor » Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:01 pm

Within the historical state of Israel only the Jews have a right to self determination. The words 'historical state of Israel' are traditionally a Zionist phrase used to mean the entire area of Israel/Palestine. It's use in the declaration means its proponents don't intend to be limited by the current borders of the Israeli state. As a UK comparison it'd be like the Republic of Ireland declaring itself sole sovereign of Ireland. The declaration sets Israel in direct opposition to the establishment of any (non-jewish) states within Palestine meaning a two state solution is impossible. Unless you create a second Jewish ethnostate in Palestine I suppose but how and why you'd do that is beyond me.

As for how this makes Israel into a South Africa style minority elite that's just simple demographics. The Gaza strip has the youngest population in the world and the Palestinian Authority has a population north of 4 million. Israel has around 8 million in population of which a bit more than 20% is Arab and another 5%ish are minorities such Greek or Armenian. As I recall you end up with a roughly 50-50 Jewish Palestinian split in "historical Israel". The Palestinians win out massively if you include the refugee population in places like Lebanon and Jordan but they're never going to be allowed back so they're best ignored. Israel has a fertility rate of roughly 3.0 whilst in Palestine it's around 4.6. Meaning that with time, and a lack of genocide, the Palestinians will outnumber the Israelis.

There one final part of the demographic puzzle that really leans into the South Africa comparison. Fertility demographics in Israel favour the Hasidic and general Orthodox communities in Israel while the liberal, non-religious demographic is declining. As time passes Israel becomes more Zionist and right-leaning which, unless there is a radical change in the right's attitudes to Palestinians, will lead to stricter and harsher approaches to Israel's non-jewish population. Ergo South Africa.

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Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

#17 Post by Octavious » Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:40 pm

Lol! You put too much faith in demographics, methinks. Orthodox Jews may have more baby Jews, but that doesn't mean these babies will grow into new Orthodox Jews. If religious parents leads to religious children then secularism would never have got going. I also see no signs whatsoever of the Gaza Strip being anything other than a self governing (perhaps governing is too strong a word) Palestinian territory for the foreseeable future. It would appear that Israel is currently rather keen on bringing parts of the West Bank into Israel proper, but that's about it.

As for the two state solution being impossible, I'd agree that this is a step in the wrong direction, but it's one of many. I doubt the probability of a two state solution had changed all that much. As things stand the powers that be on either side don't seem particularly interested in an agreement, but that can change, and nothing done this week prevents such a change.
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Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

#18 Post by Telamor » Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:37 pm

https://www.timesofisrael.com/young-isr ... us-survey/

It's already happening Oct. What I'm talking about there isn't idle theorizing, the Israeli youth is more religious, more conservative, and less open to co-existence. We both know the Gaza strip is about as self-governing as the Hashemite kingdoms of the 20s and 30s. As for change you're right that this is but one of many nails in the two-state solution's coffin (to alter your metaphor a bit) but the constitutional change has a serious impact on Israel's legal process. As it stands the Israeli supreme court is one of the few institutions working to assist the Palestinians and Israeli Arabs and each one if these legal changes weakens the supreme court's ability to intervene and hold the govt. To account. For example:

https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-p ... -won-t-let
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Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

#19 Post by Octavious » Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:53 pm

I dare say it is happening, but that doesn't mean it will continue to happen. The number of times people have extrapolated a trend and come up with a prediction that fails to match reality is countless. How often have we heard over the years that the Republicans will fail to win elections because of changing demographics, for example? And yet here we are. The UK is currently basing major road infrastructure spending on an extrapolation of road use data that has already deviated massively from reality. Your predictions of the future of Israel are no doubt well thought out, but experience tells us not to put too much faith in such things.

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Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

#20 Post by Telamor » Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:38 pm

I see your point but we aren't just talking about demographics here as the constitutional ammendment shows the changes are also systemic. Systematic and institutional changes generally encourage the reproduction of the values that created them as you can kinda see in the differences of opinion between us and ssorenn in the NHS thread.

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