52 Dead in Israel/Palestine Clashes

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Octavious
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Re: 52 Dead in Israel/Palestine Clashes

#41 Post by Octavious » Fri May 18, 2018 8:21 am

Perhaps, but that division has little to do with the battle itself, and is just a convenient date to focus the modern day issues around. The are plenty of modern day issues in play in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, of course, but the loss of their home is very much still a major part of it.

Telamor
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Re: 52 Dead in Israel/Palestine Clashes

#42 Post by Telamor » Fri May 18, 2018 9:30 am

Octavious wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 6:31 pm
That's a damned fine shite, sir :). I was aware of the terrorism against the British because of my own family history, but was very vague on the details before then. Thank you.
Cheers Oct, that means a lot!
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Telamor
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Re: 52 Dead in Israel/Palestine Clashes

#43 Post by Telamor » Sun May 20, 2018 11:54 pm

I will be popping back from time to time here James to work through your last comment. I only ever use this site on my mobile so producing a long response is an arse as is trimming down quotes so I'll start with what part of your response I'm addressing.

2000/2007-09 peace talks. Neither of the withdrawals offered by the Israelis were offered in good faith. Firstly none actually involved total withdrawal. The Israelis were willing to almost completely leave Gaza but their peace plan involved carving the west bank up into a series of 'independent' zones entirely surrounded and inter-connected by Israeli controlled territories. Further neither settlement allowed for right of return which is a huge deal to Palestinians. Many families still own the key to the front door of the house their parents/grandparents fled in 1947/8. If a Palestinian leaves Palestine their children are not able to claim Palestinian citizenship and are not allowed to return for more than a few months at a time. This policy stands in stark contrast to that if any person able to claim Jewish heritage being able to move to and gain citizenship in Israel. Just to really emphasise the point when I was in Jerusalem I met a whole group of Chilean lads whose had been born and raised in Palestine before moving to Chile. They were unable to claim Palestinian citizenship and they were not allowed visas to live in the country for more than 3 months at a time. In comparison a friend of mine who's Dad's family is Scottish fishermen as far back as records go and whose Mum's family are Czech Jewish and have been for centuries can go and live in Israel and receive citizenship. In addition it is worth bearing in mind that the land in Gaza is significantly worse than the land in the rest of Israel so offering not to build on it anymore was not a generous in any way. On top of that many people living in Gaza were not born there but were born in the occupied territories. Palestinians in the occupied territories do not receive Israeli citizenship but, as I understand it the system is pretty labarynthine, are given living permits which can be revoked by the state of Israel. Once revoked they are removed from the OTs and sent to Gaza. People on these permits can also have businesses wrapped up and property seized for minimal reasons and, again as I understand it, if you no longer have a place to live your permit is automatically revoked and you are sent to Gaza. Israel was also not willing to abandon control of the borders surrounding Gaza and the West Bank essentially continuing to deny the PA and actual autonomy at all. So rejecting the offers was an understandable move.

I also want to briefly address your misunderstanding of the illegal immigration point under the British Mandate. The immigration was illegal because the British said it was illegal. There were strict limits on the number of Zionists that were allowed to immigrate to Palestine each year. When I say that 250,000 People were smuggled in illegally I mean that they were smuggled in in direct contradiction to the wishes and laws of Britain and the British Mandate. There were in fact camps located on Cyprus where the British sent illegal Zionist migrants that they discovered. You can imagine how well that went down after WWII when survivors of concentration camps, smuggled into Palestine illegally by groups like the Irgun, were put into illegal migrant camps by GB. At the time of Partition 68% of Palestine's population was Arab, Israel's population skyrocketed once Britain withdrew and unlimited Zionist immigration was allowed. The UN division in 1948 mass8vely favoured the Zionists.

I'll hopefully come back and reply to some other parts of your post over the next few days. So watch this space I guess. As a final note, you said in your response to Kingdroid that no one ever talks about right to return but it is one of the key Palestinian desires. It is a huge part of Palestinian identity and almost all serious conversations on the topic of Israel Palestine have to at least touch on its significance.
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Telamor
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Re: 52 Dead in Israel/Palestine Clashes

#44 Post by Telamor » Mon May 21, 2018 6:46 pm

@JamesYanik I've got a few spare minutes so I'll address a small point it should be brief. You blamed the Arabs for the '48 war which is once again a really cursory reading of the situation. Palestine had been in a state of civil war since 1947 by the time the British left in '48. The eventual warm of 48 spiralled directly out of the civil war. Attempting to lay blame on either side for the civil war is by 1947 a pretty pointless pursuit.

Also your understanding of the actual protests seems to lack a lot of nuance. I'd recommend listening to the Economist podcast on the protests. They cover the causes and actions of both sides in some solid detail and the Economist's reporter on Israel/Palestine is actually resident in Jerusalem and attended te protests.
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