52 Dead in Israel/Palestine Clashes

Any political discussion should go here. This subforum will be moderated differently than other forums.
Forum rules
1.) No personal threats.
2.) No doxxing/revealing personal information.
3.) No spam.
4.) No circumventing press restrictions.
5.) No racism, sexism, homophobia, or derogatory posts.
Message
Author
JamesYanik
Posts: 83
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:38 pm
Location: USA, Oklahoma, Tulsa, Probably still in bed
Karma: 36
Contact:

52 Dead in Israel/Palestine Clashes

#1 Post by JamesYanik » Mon May 14, 2018 8:32 pm

So there are protests in Israel, several thousand Palestinians injured, 52 confirmed dead. Everyone is blaming Israel, and they do have a history of using excessive force... but then it’s like we’re missing the fact that the massive black plumes of smoke are from protestors lighting tires and incendiaries and throwing them at the border (one of the FEW uncontested parts of Israel... this isn’t even West Bank, this is Gaza) and openly trying to get across the border, throwing rocks and bottles and...

I don’t like Israel using lethal force, but Jesus so far on twitter almost every comment behind this is talking about it like Israel just kinda shot some innocent Palestinians who were walking around minding their own business.

Meanwhile there are reports that Hamas organized this, and the hashtag #GreatReturnMarch is going up... but um... this isn’t the disputed part of the land. That is miles and miles north and to the east.

And yeah, Gaza has been under pretty strict Israel border control, but that’s massively to do with the fact that rockets get fired into Israel on a daily basis. the actual “Return March” SHOULD be going on quite a ways northeast, but saying Israel has no claim to this part of the land, even the UN supported the Israeli’s giving up Gaza and the lines drawn there in the south.


Meanwhile people have decided to blame Trump, because IF ONLY he hadn't move the embassy to Jerusalem.

- Trump moves embassy to Jerusalem
- Anger by Palestinians
- They go to the border fence, violently protesting
- Israel shoots and kills violent protestors

can anyone else see why
A. Blaming Trump is pretty unfair, B. I struggle to support a "side" in this issue, and C. How shitty and non-objective western coverage of this is?
2

JamesYanik
Posts: 83
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:38 pm
Location: USA, Oklahoma, Tulsa, Probably still in bed
Karma: 36
Contact:

Re: 52 Dead in Israel/Palestine Clashes

#2 Post by JamesYanik » Mon May 14, 2018 8:59 pm

I'm going to make 4 points to try to streamline this better:


#GreatReturnMarch is a hashtag that should not exist in relation to Gaza, if anything it should be #IsraelLeaveUsAlone but it's not, and that's because their motives are clear

If protestors violently attack a border, less than a mile from that country's peoples, with many of the protestors openly stating they want to wreak havoc, while the border is besieged with rocks, Molotov cocktails, grenades and burning tires, the country is not ENTIRELY unjustified to use lethal force, especially when dealing with tens of thousands of protestors

Many in the western media likes to paint all Palestinians as victims and blameless, having their land seized from them unfairly... ignoring the multiple connections to Nazis during WWII, the rampant anti-Semitism and calls for genocide still occurring and endorsed by members of the Palestinian Authority

Israel policy in the West Bank is atrocious and their constant belligerent attitude will not be helping anything in the long term, and quite frankly if they want to have any kind of future political support post-Trump, they're going to need to clean up their act and start taking the high road.



none of the above statements contradict one another, and I feel perfectly fine and consistent holding all of those views.

CptMike
Posts: 309
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2017 8:12 am
Location: Liège, BE
Karma: 54
Contact:

Re: 52 Dead in Israel/Palestine Clashes

#3 Post by CptMike » Mon May 14, 2018 9:31 pm

JamesYanik,

There is a wall all around Gaza with trenches and watchtowers. And there is also a security zone (several hundreds meters wide) that is forbidden to Palestinians. They were shot because they entered Inside. This wall is not hold by the border's police. It is hold by Givati brigade. They have drones, snipers and machine guns. And they don't risk anything at that distance, as the Israeli population behind this wall does not risk anything.

When somebody does not know a situation, he should not comment it.

JamesYanik
Posts: 83
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:38 pm
Location: USA, Oklahoma, Tulsa, Probably still in bed
Karma: 36
Contact:

Re: 52 Dead in Israel/Palestine Clashes

#4 Post by JamesYanik » Mon May 14, 2018 9:50 pm

CptMike wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 9:31 pm
JamesYanik,

There is a wall all around Gaza with trenches and watchtowers. And there is also a security zone (several hundreds meters wide) that is forbidden to Palestinians. They were shot because they entered Inside. This wall is not hold by the border's police. It is hold by Givati brigade. They have drones, snipers and machine guns. And they don't risk anything at that distance, as the Israeli population behind this wall does not risk anything.

When somebody does not know a situation, he should not comment it.

1. Hmm... I wonder why there are trenches and watchtowers. Oh yes, it's because after Israel entirely vacated and left Gaza in 2005, leaving many greenhouses behind and getting every Israeli out... peace finally came to Gaza and they were able to slowly open up their economy, become business friendly, and grow into prosperity... oh.

wait, none of that happened.

Hamas was voted in and rocket attacks on Israel began, leading to an escalation in conflict. Hmph.


2. You also don't mention the fact that it was an estimated 40,000 protestors, trying to break through at several different points along the wall, and yes, as the #GreatReturnMarch implies, they WERE trying to get through the wall.

but instead of letting 40,000 belligerent protestors with grenades and Molotovs come up to the fence and "peacefully protest and definitely not try to enter Israel and do anything bad" the Israeli military said "no" and decided to open fire on protestors who tried to approach the wall. now if you want them to use non-lethal rounds, there's an argument behind that although when the numbers are in the tens of thousands I don't think you realize the full force this can have, but to pretend this is entirely unjustified would be ludicrous, and I hope you do not do so.

also, nice straw man with "This wall is not hold by the border's police. It is hold by Givati brigade" I NEVER CLAIMED OTHERWISE.


3. "And they don't risk anything at that distance"

umm... that's why there's a wall. and by the way, you keep saying "wall" and I have too, but it really is a large fence with towers for much of it.


4. "When somebody does not know a situation, he should not comment it."

except... you never factually disproved a single thing I said. not one.

Yonni
Silver Donator
Silver Donator
Posts: 408
Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:55 pm
Karma: 368
Contact:

Re: 52 Dead in Israel/Palestine Clashes

#5 Post by Yonni » Mon May 14, 2018 10:04 pm

This is a tasteless response to a tragedy.
2

JamesYanik
Posts: 83
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:38 pm
Location: USA, Oklahoma, Tulsa, Probably still in bed
Karma: 36
Contact:

Re: 52 Dead in Israel/Palestine Clashes

#6 Post by JamesYanik » Mon May 14, 2018 10:20 pm

also is nobody else pointing out the fact that the western media is VERY unfairly covering this, ESPECIALLY with the headlines they are using:
---------------------------------
Guardian: "Israeli forces kill dozens of Palestinians in protests as US embassy opens in Jerusalem – as it happened"

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/ ... ve-updates


except these aren't just protests, these are people trying to enter Israel, and many of the complaints from the residents of Gaza have been about getting back to their ancestral homelands (another argument can arise from this altogether).

this isn't Israel just killing protestors, it is Israel killing people who quite literally are armed with various dangerous weapons and trying to invade their land.
---------------------------------
New York Times: "Israel Kills Dozens at Gaza Border as US Embassy Opens in Jerusalem"

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/14/worl ... bassy.html


once again, the NYT are saying that it's just "protests," and Israel is killing them. The fact that this is a #GreatReturnMarch they try to keep hidden
---------------------------------


But even if these WERE just protests at the border, the fact that Palestinians are throwing grenades, Molotov cocktails, and burning tires and rocks at the fence isn't really been chastised. Especially since there is absolutely ZERO evidence that Israel initiated the violence against these protestors.






furthermore, Gaza is a very bad place to be right now. it is very heavily restricted by Israel with its borders, airspace and tactical water reserves.

My personal opinion is that Israel should get out of the West Bank, and allow for more free access to Palestinians. Israel should keep the lands they have now, and say "Palestine, if you want a state, create one, if you want to keep living as you are, fine, but we are OUT."

then, one of two things will happen.

1. Palestine will become peaceful and Israel will have no problems

2. Palestine will still have a large faction of terrorism directly intertwined with the government, rocket firings will all but increase, and just like in Gaza, the Israel presence moving out will be viewed as a victory for radicalism.

And if 1. happens then yay, the best has happened, and if 2. happens, then Israel has FULL ONE HUNDRED PERCENT RIGHT to retaliate against state sponsored terrorism against their land.



but at the end of the day, the conflict is even deeper than this.

Palestinians believe they have a right to Jerusalem, because 70 years ago they had control of Jerusalem. Sure, the government there at the time was heavily supportive of the Nazi movement, and anti-semitism was rampant in the region... but, but muh-land

and thus the most confusing part of this all. Since when have we ever given land back to terrorist influenced regimes, who only ever lost the land in the first place due to radicalized support in the territory in the first place. The British "Mandatory Israel" was not "Stealing land from Palestinians" but rather they never owned the land in the first place, much of it was held by wealthy landowners who lived in other parts of the Ottoman Empire. After the Nazi-supporters land was seized (I can never stress THAT point enough), Israel is created.


The #GreatReturnMarch to me is no better than Hitler going after the Sudetenland. This is not their land, there is almost nobody alive today who is Palestinian and was on that land. if we're talking about ancestral rights to land, then quite frankly almost every nation on earth is sitting on land taken unfairly, and compared to some countries, Israel's story is much more benign.







AND AS I SAID BEFORE THE NUMBER ONE POINT:

these protests are not saying #IsraelLeaveUsAlone

these protest ARE saying #GreatReturnMarch

this is NOT protesting Israel oppression, this IS directed belligerence at Israel.



oh, and the reports coming out that Hamas are funding and supporting much of the violence in this march? Big surprise, lest we also forget that they've openly admitted they fire missiles from hospitals and schools trying to provoke Israeli retaliation, so they can garner support. real classy folk, Hamas

JamesYanik
Posts: 83
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:38 pm
Location: USA, Oklahoma, Tulsa, Probably still in bed
Karma: 36
Contact:

Re: 52 Dead in Israel/Palestine Clashes

#7 Post by JamesYanik » Mon May 14, 2018 10:27 pm

Yonni wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 10:04 pm
This is a tasteless response to a tragedy.

Do you know what I find tasteless?


The parents who bring their kids to these border rushes, knowing full well that their children could be killed, I find tasteless

The swastikas that lay in the sky alongside Palestinian flags at these protests, I find tasteless

The idea that Israel has no right to exist, a stance perpetuated by Hamas and many member of the Palestinian authority, I find tasteless



and do you know what's the worst of it all? I DON'T EVEN LIKE ISRAEL. I hate the idea of theocracy, the one redeeming factor about Israel is that they will accept Jewish refugees from anywhere in the world, and they've done that through their seventy years of existence.

but the media comes out in full force AGAINST Israel, simply because they are protecting their borders from 40,000 men and women trying to cross it, burning tires thrown at the fences, grenades, explosives and Molotovs... and now I'm forced into a position where I have to defend Israel, because of the amount of unfair coverage.


lies are lies are lies.

and I'm sick and tired of reading biased bullshit, when there's hardly an honest conversation that ever takes place.

yes it is terrible that 52 people died, but their deaths have already been politicized against Israel.


so here's a question, do you find THAT tasteless also?
2

Octavious
Posts: 3844
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:16 pm
Location: The Five Valleys, Gloucestershire
Karma: 2605
Contact:

Re: 52 Dead in Israel/Palestine Clashes

#8 Post by Octavious » Mon May 14, 2018 10:49 pm

It seems clear to me that Israel is not making the lives of the Palestinians a priority. I have no doubt whatsoever that they could have defended their borders with far fewer casualties if the will had been there.

Equally, it is clear that this is not a peaceful protest, and was never designed to be a peaceful protest. Nor were the Palestinians who were killed somehow under the impression that the Israelis would behave any differently. The Israelis have been accused of many things, but unpredictably isn't one of them.

It is very hard to be sympathetic to either side when neither sets of leaders are remotely interested in peace or compromise. The status quo suits the powers that be on both sides just fine.
1

JamesYanik
Posts: 83
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:38 pm
Location: USA, Oklahoma, Tulsa, Probably still in bed
Karma: 36
Contact:

Re: 52 Dead in Israel/Palestine Clashes

#9 Post by JamesYanik » Mon May 14, 2018 11:09 pm

@Octavious

I agree with everything you said, but on one point:

40,000 people trying to cross the Israeli border, with extremely belligerent forces, and the guard has a choice to make. stick with tear gas and hope that intimidation works, or use deadly force. Israel would have a much simpler time if they really made a focus on non-lethals, however I do have to report one thing, WHICH I CANNOT CONFIRM

https://twitter.com/AviMayer/status/996137963556925442


at this point, I'm really waiting on finding out just how violent the people protesting at the fence were.

if there were open gunfire at Israeli soldiers, as the completely unsubstantiated tweet claims (still waiting on facts), then those numbers start to make more sense. Hamas does have a track record of hiding behind children after all.



the thing I don't like is the absolute mob that takes over my timeline on twitter that declares that Israel just slaughtered innocent protestors, that's the story, give me a like and retweet and go on with your day.




if you want to shit on Israel, talk about the settlements in the West Bank, talk about the "Wrath of God" assassinations done after Munich, which as morally contentious as those were don't even address the Lillehammer incident where Mossad killed an entirely innocent man, trying to kill Salameh.

and even then, when they did find and kill Ali Hassan Salameh, they killed a whole bunch of people with collateral damage in that strike and nobody really batted an eye.

I am fully in favor of Israel defending itself, but it's when it moves outside its borders that I tend to dislike things.

JamesYanik
Posts: 83
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:38 pm
Location: USA, Oklahoma, Tulsa, Probably still in bed
Karma: 36
Contact:

Re: 52 Dead in Israel/Palestine Clashes

#10 Post by JamesYanik » Mon May 14, 2018 11:23 pm

this is probably the best non-radical disagreement thread I can find on twitter right now, @neontaster and @notwokieleaks arguing

https://twitter.com/notwokieleaks/statu ... 0367965184

Bob Genghiskhan
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon May 07, 2018 12:55 am
Karma: 9
Contact:

Re: 52 Dead in Israel/Palestine Clashes

#11 Post by Bob Genghiskhan » Mon May 14, 2018 11:33 pm

How many generations of Chinese occupation of Oklahoma would it take before you gave up on it?
3

JamesYanik
Posts: 83
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:38 pm
Location: USA, Oklahoma, Tulsa, Probably still in bed
Karma: 36
Contact:

Re: 52 Dead in Israel/Palestine Clashes

#12 Post by JamesYanik » Mon May 14, 2018 11:50 pm

Bob Genghiskhan wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 11:33 pm
How many generations of Chinese occupation of Oklahoma would it take before you gave up on it?

If Oklahomans started fully supporting Naziism along with the rest of the USA, and in WWIII the Chinese were good guys and invaded the USA, then China decided that Oklahoma would be a refuge for Jews from the USA, and I lost my land, I'd be upset.

But I WOULDN'T blame the Jews in Oklahoma.


of course your example MASSIVELY ignores the context of the Middle East with specific historical events.


so how about you ask a halfway decent question?
1

Bob Genghiskhan
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon May 07, 2018 12:55 am
Karma: 9
Contact:

Re: 52 Dead in Israel/Palestine Clashes

#13 Post by Bob Genghiskhan » Mon May 14, 2018 11:57 pm

Alternatively, you could answer mine. Because historical complexity doesn't mean shit to someone whose grandparents were kicked off the family patrimony and whose family has spent the next couple of generations trapped in a ghetto.

You know who else supported the Nazis, and with much more ubiquity and fervor than the people of Mandatory Palestine? The Germans. So, probably, they should have been the ones to lose their homes for the establishment of an apartheid state. Actually, you know who else supported the Nazis, and with much more fervor than the people of Mandatory Palestine? The French. The British. The US.
1

JamesYanik
Posts: 83
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:38 pm
Location: USA, Oklahoma, Tulsa, Probably still in bed
Karma: 36
Contact:

Re: 52 Dead in Israel/Palestine Clashes

#14 Post by JamesYanik » Tue May 15, 2018 12:02 am

Bob Genghiskhan wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 11:33 pm
How many generations of Chinese occupation of Oklahoma would it take before you gave up on it?

Also, if you actually read what I've posted, I already said Israel should turn over the West Bank to Palestine, pull out of all settlements, allow more Gaza independence, and let Palestine work itself out.

but YOU are being dishonest now with the China/Oklahoma comparison in any way shape or form

that has NOTHING to do with the land immediately north of Gaza where this #GreatReturnMarch is happening, that land even the UN says belongs to Israel. attacking a border fence, using explosives and incendiaries, with members OPENLY stating they want to kill Israeli's inside.

is THIS what you condone as an appropriate response?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/mi ... story.html

(for source about protestors openly admitting they want to wreak havoc inside Israel)

if you want some hard facts, how about Palestinians stop electing terrorist factions? that might help ease tension and let them gain rights ESPECIALLY with Gaza and Hamas, given Hamas' track record (I you want a rant on this I'll more than happily oblige)




but whatever, massively oversimplify the issue to make yourself feel better.

Bob Genghiskhan
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon May 07, 2018 12:55 am
Karma: 9
Contact:

Re: 52 Dead in Israel/Palestine Clashes

#15 Post by Bob Genghiskhan » Tue May 15, 2018 12:12 am

The point of oversimplification isn't to make me feel better, it's to trigger some goddamn empathy on your part. It's to help you contextualize exactly why the Gazans are pissed off. Why they are wiling to throw rocks at tanks. Why they keep electing terrorist factions. I wonder why you think it's essential that Palestinians should stop electing terrorist factions and yet you don't seem to give a shit that Israel keeps electing terrorist factions.

JamesYanik
Posts: 83
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:38 pm
Location: USA, Oklahoma, Tulsa, Probably still in bed
Karma: 36
Contact:

Re: 52 Dead in Israel/Palestine Clashes

#16 Post by JamesYanik » Tue May 15, 2018 12:25 am

Bob Genghiskhan wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 11:57 pm
Alternatively, you could answer mine. Because historical complexity doesn't mean shit to someone whose grandparents were kicked off the family patrimony and whose family has spent the next couple of generations trapped in a ghetto.

You know who else supported the Nazis, and with much more ubiquity and fervor than the people of Mandatory Palestine? The Germans. So, probably, they should have been the ones to lose their homes for the establishment of an apartheid state. Actually, you know who else supported the Nazis, and with much more fervor than the people of Mandatory Palestine? The French. The British. The US.
1. "Alternatively, you could answer mine. Because historical complexity doesn't mean shit to someone whose grandparents were kicked off the family patrimony and whose family has spent the next couple of generations trapped in a ghetto."

fine, the answer is I wouldn't sit around in a refugee camp 70 years after the fact demanding I get land back that my grandparents lost because my nation supported a genocidal regime. Even in Gaza, there are Israeli movements offering to help people leave if they want to go somewhere else in the Middle East.

but if you TRULY support the argument that people DESERVE their ancestral homelands back, then guess what? the Palestinians don't actually have any real right to this land. The Ottoman encroachment was a bloody one. but of course you'll selectively ignore any timeline going further back than YOU want it to.




2. "Actually, you know who else supported the Nazis, and with much more fervor than the people of Mandatory Palestine? The French. The British. The US."

citations needed. anti-semitism has been a problem in France/Britain/US, but Britain SET UP the Mandatory Palestine. pretty crazy thing to do if you're an anti-semite.

meanwhile the 1936-1939 Arab revolt wasn't bigoted AT ALL, no, the arabic nationalism wasn't jew hate... even though the Jews ESPECIALLY with the British Mandate LEGALLY bought land up post WWI, which is where much of this land was brought up, right until the civil war when Israel fought against Jordan, Egypt, Syria and Iraq, when the rest of the land was claimed after they won against a much larger fighting force. A legal conflict was turned into a military one NOT by Israel, but after the fight was started, they finished it, and claimed much of the land. Literally every other war in human history where one country wins and claims land from another we understand (except this one), and in this case Israel were very much the underdogs.



3. "The Germans. So, probably, they should have been the ones to lose their homes for the establishment of an apartheid state."

and this is where I have to ask if you're just historically ignorant, or purposefully trying to deceive other people reading this thread.

There was already a large number of Jews and Zionists who had legally bought land in Mandatory Palestine... and they accepted the refugees. the idea that Jews would have expanding (and entirely legal) influence was the cause of the civil war.

Jews, having been fed up with people trying to commit genocide against them, decided to fight back. in doing so they won large amounts of land, much of which as far south as the Sinai peninsula they'd later concede, and also they became Israel.




Israel haven't been nice to Palestinians, and I personally am against that. Israel has a very hardline approach to domestic issues which I don't support, AS. I. HAVE. ALREADY. STATED.

but that does NOT mean that when 40,000 very belligerent protestors, armed with explosives, many OPENLY stating they want to kill Israelis and wreak havoc (I sourced washingtonpost in a post above), decide to charge the border, carrying kids, children barely older than my little brother...

don't tell me that's good behavior, that's justifiable in any sense. don't you dare fucking tell me that.


Yes Israel needs to step up, but no I will never support people trying to seize land that in no way belongs to them, 70 years after the fact, through violent methods, putting children in harms way.

Bob Genghiskhan
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon May 07, 2018 12:55 am
Karma: 9
Contact:

Re: 52 Dead in Israel/Palestine Clashes

#17 Post by Bob Genghiskhan » Tue May 15, 2018 12:26 am

You know, I was overly personal in my last post, and for that, I apologize.
1

JamesYanik
Posts: 83
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:38 pm
Location: USA, Oklahoma, Tulsa, Probably still in bed
Karma: 36
Contact:

Re: 52 Dead in Israel/Palestine Clashes

#18 Post by JamesYanik » Tue May 15, 2018 12:38 am

Bob Genghiskhan wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 12:12 am
The point of oversimplification isn't to make me feel better, it's to trigger some goddamn empathy on your part. It's to help you contextualize exactly why the Gazans are pissed off. Why they are wiling to throw rocks at tanks. Why they keep electing terrorist factions. I wonder why you think it's essential that Palestinians should stop electing terrorist factions and yet you don't seem to give a shit that Israel keeps electing terrorist factions.
My problem isn't empathy, there are pictures on twitter of kids with gaping holes in their legs. that shit is fucked up.

MY PROBLEM is that everyone points at Israel and screams HOW DARE YOU when it's these kids being carried out by parents who know full well they might get injured or killed, because they're in the middle of a mob who is throwing grenades and explosives at a border fence. I mean holy fuck, WHY CAN'T YOU DECRY THIS????


And I HAVE INSULTED ISRAEL ON HERE OPENLY, but the problems in Gaza ARE NOT stemming from Israel.

Israel in 2005 CLEARED OUT from Gaza, only keeping some border and air control, waiting to see what would happen.

Hamas happened. rockets fired daily into Israel happened. more and more radicalism, by trying to give up ground happened.


and so yeah the situation in Gaza isn't good, but don't you pretend Israel is the sole catalyst for this. Israel were taking a very progressive step forward, albeit a cautious one, by moving ALL Israeli's out of the Gaza Strip.

Now I personally think they should go the entire way, let Gaza and the West Bank go under Palestinian control.and maybe then shitheads like you will see that the genocidal, anti-semitic element here, won't just disappear when they get their own country.




but that's something YOU are also choosing to ignore, the fact that Israel has been FAR more generous in offers for solutions than Palestine

Did you forget Camp David in 2000, when Israel offering 96% of the West Bank, ALL of the Gaza Strip, and massively loosen control on parts of Jerusalem?

Of course Arafat said no and DIDN'T EVEN OFFER AN ALTERNATIVE




so hey, why aren't Palestinians rioting AGAINST the Palestinian authority or Hamas day in day out? Why aren't they upset that their leaders seem unwilling to find any kind of solution to this?

Kingdroid
Posts: 219
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:01 pm
Karma: 86
Contact:

Re: 52 Dead in Israel/Palestine Clashes

#19 Post by Kingdroid » Tue May 15, 2018 12:52 am

Octavious wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 10:49 pm
It seems clear to me that Israel is not making the lives of the Palestinians a priority. I have no doubt whatsoever that they could have defended their borders with far fewer casualties if the will had been there.

Equally, it is clear that this is not a peaceful protest, and was never designed to be a peaceful protest. Nor were the Palestinians who were killed somehow under the impression that the Israelis would behave any differently. The Israelis have been accused of many things, but unpredictably isn't one of them.

It is very hard to be sympathetic to either side when neither sets of leaders are remotely interested in peace or compromise. The status quo suits the powers that be on both sides just fine.
I know you don't care about my opinion but I'm actually quite impressed with you for this response oct. i honestly expected to hear the same ridiculous zionist arguments I usually hear from right wingers from you as well.

Unfortunately, I cannot fully agree. While I recognize that the Palestinian side has not always been super peaceful (to put it lightly), I can't find myself to blame the people who have were summarily displaced from the land they've lived on for at least a thousand years, and then were continuously oppressed/attacked by a coalition of foreign governments and military force. The Palestinians, for a long time at the start of the Israel/palestinian conflict were attempting to come to agreements with Israel that were fair to both parties, while the Israelis continuously broke these agreements and pushed more and more Palestinians off what little land they have left. This sort of action continues to this day. The Israeli government has not acted in good faith literally ever.

In addition, this is just one incident in a long series of events where the Israeli military shoots unarmed (relatively) Palestinians and then israeli and Western Media attempts to whitewash the Israeli as anything less than the completely violent fascist ethnostate it is, that is slowly but surely attempting to commit a genocide.

For Exmaple, the New York Times first reported these murders with headlines such as "52 people *have died* during protests on the gaza strips" (emphasis mine), a completely blatantattempt to avoid casting blame on the group actively committing murder.
1

JamesYanik
Posts: 83
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:38 pm
Location: USA, Oklahoma, Tulsa, Probably still in bed
Karma: 36
Contact:

Re: 52 Dead in Israel/Palestine Clashes

#20 Post by JamesYanik » Tue May 15, 2018 12:53 am

recapping for this entire damn thread

Hamas has a history of using children in schools and hospitals as cover for their rockets, hoping Israel kills their kids so they can get support.

This protest is called the #GreatReturnMarch because they want the land Israel, according to even the UN, rightfully holds.

Violent riots at the border with explosives, kites set to create fires on Israeli land, grenades, Molotovs, rocks, and some reports of gunshots from the Palestinian sides occur at the fence.

Israel decides some live fire is necessary to stop these 40,000 people, given that they have settlements less than 1 mile from some parts of these fences.

Non-lethals aren't going to be effective at all. tear gas is the best option but rubber bullets are very close range, and increase the likelihood of the fence being overrun. they want to protect their families behind the border, so they aim for legs, resulting in thousands of injuries, and unfortunately 55 deaths.

If Israel had zero regard for Palestinians, the casualties would be in the tens of thousands. they have drones, an Air Force, far superior weaponry. this is not Israel trying to massacre Palestinians. that is not their motive

some of the protestors have decided it is appropriate to bring children, entirely innocent having done nothing wrong, onto the front lines and by the gunfire. with plumes of smoke from burning tires and tear gas shielding view as it trails hundreds of feet into the air, some children have been accidentally shot.



decry Israel for using violent force. if they use rubber bullets, maybe some soldiers die, maybe one of the 13 rushed parts of the fence is breached. they don't want to take that chance. this is a difficult moral argument, one I don't like but I can understand

Palestinians bringing children to the frontline, trying to reclaim land that the UN doesn't even think is theirs, I do not sympathize with. if this happened in the West Bank with all the grey lines, this would be a legitimate disgrace by Israel, but this, as it stands, lies squarely to blame with Hamas.



that is just for what has happened recently. for the overarching story between Israel and Palestine,

Israel having illegal settlements in the West Bank is terrible. Israeli assassinations of people overseas are terrible innocent (Lillehammer) or otherwise. Israeli domestic policy is not well crafted and is exacerbating current problems, anti-arabic bigotry is bad

Palestinians not standing up to politicians who won't compromise is bad, the ever present links with terrorist organizations in Palestinian governance is bad, the rockets that are fired daily at Israel are bad, Palestinians supporting Hamas who still use children and women as shields are bad, the anti-semitic sentiment is bad

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 77 guests