Monarchism is less dysfunctional than Democracy

Any political discussion should go here. This subforum will be moderated differently than other forums.
Forum rules
1.) No personal threats.
2.) No doxxing/revealing personal information.
3.) No spam.
4.) No circumventing press restrictions.
5.) No racism, sexism, homophobia, or derogatory posts.
Message
Author
Incrementalist
Posts: 139
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:06 am
Karma: 80
Contact:

Re: Monarchism is less dysfunctional than Democracy

#21 Post by Incrementalist » Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:56 am

Wusti wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:22 am
There are no silver bullet because people are:

1. Greedy
2. Stupid
3. Lazy
If human nature consisted only of deleterious traits, we would have gone extinct eons ago.

In a way I do agree with you that a political system has to take the "fundamental characteristics" of human nature into account, but making negative value judgments about those characteristics seems to be the opposite of dealing with them for what they are.
2

Wusti
Posts: 399
Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:12 pm
Karma: 232
Contact:

Re: Monarchism is less dysfunctional than Democracy

#22 Post by Wusti » Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:35 am

To quote myself:

"These traits account for the majority of human interactions..."

I stand by that comment, and would say that nobility, generosity and other positive factors are not non-existent, but several orders of magnitude rarer.

mhsmith0
Posts: 318
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:35 am
Karma: 186
Contact:

Re: Monarchism is less dysfunctional than Democracy

#23 Post by mhsmith0 » Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:45 pm

Tom Bombadil wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 3:26 pm
Are you arguing that monarchy is preferable to democracy? It seems like you've come short of that conclusion but I may be misinterpreting.

But as far as monarchy being less dysfunctional or more efficient that is certainly true - there is just fewer moving parts in a monarchy.
When the monarch is good, monarchy can function reasonably well. When the monarch is bad, though...
glgl

PS monarchies, and the social structures that support them (feudalism, lots of intermarriage between different monarchic dynasties and/or intermarriage between the monarchic dynasty and the noble houses supporting it from within the country, etc) also tend towards inbreeding which tends to increase the odds of severely dysfunctional monarchs occupying the throne

PPS one of the useful things about representative government is that when the government is bad, or dumb, or inefficient, or whatever, it can be replaced with a minimum of violence through the process of elections. In a dictatorship/monarchy, said option does not exist, and the populace must either live with the bad government or overthrow it (typically violently), which itself can cause lots of issues.
3

CroakandDagger
Posts: 235
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:07 am
Karma: 195
Contact:

Re: Monarchism is less dysfunctional than Democracy

#24 Post by CroakandDagger » Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:17 pm

But what about when your society degenerates to the point where you are given only a choice between bad and worse at election time?

mhsmith0
Posts: 318
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:35 am
Karma: 186
Contact:

Re: Monarchism is less dysfunctional than Democracy

#25 Post by mhsmith0 » Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:50 pm

The dictator or monarch will not save you and will not make your problems go away. Instead he will replace your problems with worse ones.
1

Octavious
Posts: 3844
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:16 pm
Location: The Five Valleys, Gloucestershire
Karma: 2605
Contact:

Re: Monarchism is less dysfunctional than Democracy

#26 Post by Octavious » Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:13 pm

mhsmith0 wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:45 pm
PS monarchies, and the social structures that support them (feudalism, lots of intermarriage between different monarchic dynasties and/or intermarriage between the monarchic dynasty and the noble houses supporting it from within the country, etc) also tend towards inbreeding which tends to increase the odds of severely dysfunctional monarchs occupying the throne

PPS one of the useful things about representative government is that when the government is bad, or dumb, or inefficient, or whatever, it can be replaced with a minimum of violence through the process of elections. In a dictatorship/monarchy, said option does not exist, and the populace must either live with the bad government or overthrow it (typically violently), which itself can cause lots of issues.
Actually, neither of those are particularly true. Whilst there was some degree of inbreeding in historic monarchies this was more a function of the age than anything peculiar to the system. Indeed, monarchies with marriages spanning nations tended to be somewhat less inbred than the typical subject, who tended to marry their cousins from the neighbouring village. You're also using a very restrictive view of monarchies. In many British systems the monarch was elected from a selection of noble families, which avoided the idiot first born son problem. Even when the strict hereditary system dominated, particularly unsuitable candidates had a habit of being discovered to illegitimate, or being firmly encouraged to abdicate, or having unfortunate hunting accidents, before damage was done.

User avatar
JECE
Posts: 1478
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2017 4:35 pm
Karma: 393
Contact:

Re: Monarchism is less dysfunctional than Democracy

#27 Post by JECE » Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:56 pm

Octavious: Come on, this thread isn't really about monarchy. CroakandDagger was taking a snipe at democracy. Constitutional monarchies haven't even been mentioned yet.

Octavious
Posts: 3844
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:16 pm
Location: The Five Valleys, Gloucestershire
Karma: 2605
Contact:

Re: Monarchism is less dysfunctional than Democracy

#28 Post by Octavious » Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:04 pm

JECE wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:56 pm
Octavious: Come on, this thread isn't really about monarchy. CroakandDagger was taking a snipe at democracy. Constitutional monarchies haven't even been mentioned yet.
Wusti mentioned them a few posts back, in fact.

Regardless, you can't judge democracy against the backdrop of monarchy unless you have a decent understanding of what monarchies are, and the popular American view of monarchy does seem heavily influenced by a mix of Disney and their creation myth rather than what monarchies do or did exist.

User avatar
JECE
Posts: 1478
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2017 4:35 pm
Karma: 393
Contact:

Re: Monarchism is less dysfunctional than Democracy

#29 Post by JECE » Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:28 pm

Octavious: I'd argue that the backdrop isn't monarchy, but rather authoritarianism. Thanks for pointing out Wusti's post.

Wusti: Are you trying to say that separatist movements are inevitable because people are greedy, stupid and lazy (such that the monarchy is irrelevant)?

Wusti
Posts: 399
Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:12 pm
Karma: 232
Contact:

Re: Monarchism is less dysfunctional than Democracy

#30 Post by Wusti » Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:13 pm

JECE - the link is most usually greed, followed closely by stupidity.

The main argument for Separatist movements is self-determination for a group that claims some special characteristic that makes them "different" to the point where a Majoritarian government cannot possibly govern effectively and/or fairly on their behalf, or IN THEIR INTEREST.

The clear assumption being made is that they will somehow be better off alone than as part of the group. This brings in the Greed argument, and often includes an element of stupidity, where perfectly sound arguments against separating are ignored.

The case is obviously more complex - but you can see where I am going with this. When you dig deeply into motivations for most questionable action you will find at its heart one of a combination of G, S or L (sorry for laziness :D).

Interestingly, you do get the odd contradiction and more intelligent results on occasion: take Brexit - being a classic argument AGAINST Majoritarianism, and yet a sub-group showed uncommon reason in voting down the Scottish Independence Referendum.

Tl:dr - people do weird shit sometimes and its usually GSL at the heart.

Hell even Trump is the result of GSL - laziness on the part of all those muppets who never voted THEN complained, greed from those who thought they could benefit, and stupidity from the dumbarses in the Rust belt who actually though he would represent their interests.

Goronman
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:15 pm
Karma: 4
Contact:

Re: Monarchism is less dysfunctional than Democracy

#31 Post by Goronman » Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:54 am

Monarchism is a snake that eats itself, people don’t like being subjugated.

Octavious
Posts: 3844
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:16 pm
Location: The Five Valleys, Gloucestershire
Karma: 2605
Contact:

Re: Monarchism is less dysfunctional than Democracy

#32 Post by Octavious » Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:29 am

Goronman wrote:
Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:54 am
Monarchism is a snake that eats itself
What does that even mean? It's mostly harmless but quite interesting? They make good inspiration for jewellery design?
1

ubercacher16
Posts: 151
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:47 am
Location: Illinois
Karma: 104
Contact:

Re: Monarchism is less dysfunctional than Democracy

#33 Post by ubercacher16 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 1:49 pm

Octavious wrote:
Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:29 am
Goronman wrote:
Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:54 am
Monarchism is a snake that eats itself
What does that even mean? It's mostly harmless but quite interesting? They make good inspiration for jewellery design?
I think he means that it is bad and self destructing.

Incrementalist
Posts: 139
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:06 am
Karma: 80
Contact:

Re: Monarchism is less dysfunctional than Democracy

#34 Post by Incrementalist » Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:20 pm

Goronman wrote:
Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:54 am
Monarchism is a snake that eats itself, people don’t like being subjugated.
A snake that only ate itself would be self-sufficient, the people wouldn't even know it was there.
1

yavuzovic
Posts: 2912
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:42 pm
Location: Istanbul
Karma: 570
Contact:

Re: Monarchism is less dysfunctional than Democracy

#35 Post by yavuzovic » Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:30 pm

Incrementalist wrote:
Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:20 pm
A snake that only ate itself would be self-sufficient, the people wouldn't even know it was there.
They doesn't need to elect presidents.
There would be two kinds of people,
1- Managers
2- Civilians
So everybody could focus on their business! This is a part of the good side of Monarchism.

Octavious
Posts: 3844
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:16 pm
Location: The Five Valleys, Gloucestershire
Karma: 2605
Contact:

Re: Monarchism is less dysfunctional than Democracy

#36 Post by Octavious » Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:19 pm

Incrementalist wrote:
Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:20 pm
Goronman wrote:
Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:54 am
Monarchism is a snake that eats itself, people don’t like being subjugated.
A snake that only ate itself would be self-sufficient, the people wouldn't even know it was there.
It had better make sure it's eaten its arse before it needs to take a shite

spartan445
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:13 am
Karma: 9
Contact:

Re: Monarchism is less dysfunctional than Democracy

#37 Post by spartan445 » Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:20 pm

CroakandDagger wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:17 pm
But what about when your society degenerates to the point where you are given only a choice between bad and worse at election time?
Then you vote for the less-bad choice and start making phone calls, sending letters, attending town halls where you voice your displeasure with their crappy things, and because they're afraid they'll lose the next election because you and your voice are loud enough to ring in their ears at night, they'll vote the way you want. They may not be happy about it, but it's better than having to kill people when the monarchy goes sour.
1

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 84 guests