EU vaccine hoarding

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Octavious
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Re: EU vaccine hoarding

#21 Post by Octavious » Thu Feb 25, 2021 5:43 pm


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Re: EU vaccine hoarding

#22 Post by flash2015 » Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:37 am

Not to worry. AstraZeneca can't get their act together with deliveries either:

https://www.dw.com/en/coronavirus-astra ... a-56707857

It is likely that AstraZeneca is going to play a much smaller role in the vaccine rollout than initially anticipated.

South Africa wants to even return their doses:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN2AG08P

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Re: EU vaccine hoarding

#23 Post by flash2015 » Fri Feb 26, 2021 3:05 am

EU is planning to purchase more BioNTech/Pfizer and Moderna vaccines instead which sounds reasonable:

https://www.fiercepharma.com/manufactur ... ers-europe

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Re: EU vaccine hoarding

#24 Post by Octavious » Fri Feb 26, 2021 8:10 am

Only you, flash, could conclude that the solution to vaccine hoarding is buying more vaccine :smirk:

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Re: EU vaccine hoarding

#25 Post by orathaic » Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:07 am

Flash, South Africa seems in a terrible position considering the variant there is not stopped by this vaccine. We need mandatory quarantines across the board to prevent new variants spreading (but this may be too late), sending back vaccines may not help anyone.

but I wonder what their trial actually showed. Was it less effective at preventing serious illness (hospitalisation and deaths?) was it not effective at all?the article doesn't say.

The J&J vaccine will likely have similar production issues. But poor state reporting about the AstraZeneca vaccine feels political. I am disgusted, but Oct would have us believe this is intentional hoarding behaviour, rather than incompetence limits to one product (associated with Oxford).

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Re: EU vaccine hoarding

#26 Post by Octavious » Fri Feb 26, 2021 11:28 am

The political and totally unfounded attacks against the AZ vaccine are very deliberate, and the result has been several EU member states hoarding far more vaccines than they are using. I'm not sure how you can argue against that, ora. It is simple fact. If you're trying to imply I was suggesting that the EU were hoarding the AZ vaccine away from everyone for some unspecified future purpose then you are wrong. The hoarding is a byproduct of extreme political cynicism and opportunism from various major EU players, combined with painfully inept distribution efforts.

The fact that the EU were willing to trash the Northern Ireland peace process in an attempt to bully a company in to giving them a vaccine they're not using is sickening. As is their pandering to China. As are the new sanctions imposed on Russia (four politicians will be banned from entering the EU and might have their European assets frozen next month? Quelle horreur!). As are the threats of legal action against members trying to control the virus with border restrictions.

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Re: EU vaccine hoarding

#27 Post by flash2015 » Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:44 pm

Octavious wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 8:10 am
Only you, flash, could conclude that the solution to vaccine hoarding is buying more vaccine :smirk:
No, they are buying more vaccine because they will likely use less of the Oxford one due to its production issues and lack of effectiveness.

The US ordered 300 million doses of Oxford too. Given that they will have 600M does by July just for the mRNA vaccines and J&J is starting to roll out (we will also have Novavax soon too), I would expect that they will use little if any of that.

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Re: EU vaccine hoarding

#28 Post by Octavious » Fri Feb 26, 2021 3:16 pm

Good God, but you're dense. Every western nation has ordered more than enough vaccines to service their population. Some several times over. The issue that matters is getting people vaccinated before they die, which carries with it a sense of urgency. Thousands are dying every day, you thick gobshite. There is no justification whatsoever for European nations to sit on stockpiles of millions of doses whilst people are dying in huge numbers. I've often doubted the stories of people on the Titantic's lifeboats not trying to rescue their fellow passengers, but I see now that I was wrong. Utter turds like you do exist, who would lounge in their lifeboat looking to see if they could find another one with better looking seats before considering that trying to save anyone else was worth considering.

Also the AZ vaccine has been found to be highly effective. Stop spewing forth your anti-vax bollocks. Spreading lies like that can, and often have, led to people dying, and you should think twice about using webDip to spread your pathetic propaganda.

You make me sick.

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Re: EU vaccine hoarding

#29 Post by flash2015 » Fri Feb 26, 2021 4:36 pm

orathaic wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:07 am
Flash, South Africa seems in a terrible position considering the variant there is not stopped by this vaccine. We need mandatory quarantines across the board to prevent new variants spreading (but this may be too late), sending back vaccines may not help anyone.

but I wonder what their trial actually showed. Was it less effective at preventing serious illness (hospitalisation and deaths?) was it not effective at all?the article doesn't say.

The J&J vaccine will likely have similar production issues. But poor state reporting about the AstraZeneca vaccine feels political. I am disgusted, but Oct would have us believe this is intentional hoarding behaviour, rather than incompetence limits to one product (associated with Oxford).
It is difficult to tell...but the results were bad enough that they have completely switched to J&J vaccine instead. The J&J study from the US FDA seemed more promising...but I don't believe it is an apples to apples comparison.

Too early to tell whether J&J will have the same issues as AstraZeneca. At least from what I have read J&J is a far more experienced vaccine producer than AstraZeneca...so perhaps they will do better.

It was initially believed early on in the pandemic that the AstraZeneca vaccine will provide the backbone of the vaccine rollout given it was going with proven tech, it was cheap and could be stored easily and for long periods. I have seen opinion claiming now that the J&J vaccine could be that backbone instead, especially given it is a one dose vs. two dose regiment. We will see in a few months.

I am sure there is some politics involved in this...but we are even having medical professionals in Europe turn the vaccine down. This is a temporary issue though. It will be resolved and they will tweak their rollout to get the vaccine used. I am not too concerned at this point.

At least currently, EU is very different from the US in regards to vaccines. The US is hoarding vaccine until it is completely done with vaccinating its own population. As well as producing for its own population EU is exporting to countries like Canada and Australia (that Canada have to import from the EU instead of the US is kind of nuts). I am sure if EU decides to use less of AstraZeneca it can be exported to other countries instead...if it is still deemed effective at that time.

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Re: EU vaccine hoarding

#30 Post by flash2015 » Fri Feb 26, 2021 4:37 pm

Octavious wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 3:16 pm
Good God, but you're dense. Every western nation has ordered more than enough vaccines to service their population. Some several times over. The issue that matters is getting people vaccinated before they die, which carries with it a sense of urgency. Thousands are dying every day, you thick gobshite. There is no justification whatsoever for European nations to sit on stockpiles of millions of doses whilst people are dying in huge numbers. I've often doubted the stories of people on the Titantic's lifeboats not trying to rescue their fellow passengers, but I see now that I was wrong. Utter turds like you do exist, who would lounge in their lifeboat looking to see if they could find another one with better looking seats before considering that trying to save anyone else was worth considering.

Also the AZ vaccine has been found to be highly effective. Stop spewing forth your anti-vax bollocks. Spreading lies like that can, and often have, led to people dying, and you should think twice about using webDip to spread your pathetic propaganda.

You make me sick.
That is a lot of hyperventilation there. Do you need a brown bag?
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Re: EU vaccine hoarding

#31 Post by flash2015 » Fri Feb 26, 2021 4:52 pm

People here are even getting picky between Pfizer and Moderna. Some people prefer the three week turnaround for Pfizer vs. the four week turnaround for Moderna (perhaps it is the other way around - I don't remember).

I suspect the US may have some problems with J&J because of its lower effectiveness vs. the mRNA vaccines especially since J&J will start coming in bulk after the crazy initial rush. I can't deny that I will be partial for the Pfizer/Moderna vs J&J if I can have a choice (I am guessing by April I will be able to apply for it). Perhaps the one dose vs. two dose regimen will relieve some of these issues though.

Vaccines of course should be decided at the aggregate rather than individual level. It is more important that as many people as possible get some protection vs. a small percentage of the population have near perfect protection. But again, it is just human nature to want the best for yourself.

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Re: EU vaccine hoarding

#32 Post by Jamiet99uk » Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:05 pm

The idea of allowing people to choose which vaccine they get is extremely foolish on a number of levels.

It's foolish because of the additional administrative work this will require, at a time when speed is of the essence and delays cause deaths, not to mention that additional public administration comes at a cost to the taxpayer.

It's foolish because, as we can see, it's causing delays to vaccine roll-out.

It's foolish because it causes stockpiling and waste at a time when many people have no access to vaccines at all.

It's also foolish because it sends a signal to people that their Government thinks they are all individually intelligent, knowledgeable and well-informed enough to make better decisions than medical professionals and scientists, thereby undermining public trust in the ability of those professionals.

Indulgent, wasteful, ignorant bourgeois behaviour of the worst kind.
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Re: EU vaccine hoarding

#33 Post by flash2015 » Fri Feb 26, 2021 7:18 pm

You are right. Explicitly making it possible to pick and choose the vaccine you would like, at least at this point, would be bad government policy.

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Re: EU vaccine hoarding

#34 Post by flash2015 » Fri Feb 26, 2021 7:26 pm

Though even if you don't make the choice explicit, people will find out what vaccines are administered where...and will have a preference.

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Re: EU vaccine hoarding

#35 Post by flash2015 » Fri Feb 26, 2021 7:37 pm

Interesting that in the UK that the preference may go in the other direction (Astrazeneca over Pfizer). I saw something in a BBC article which suggested that too:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/eu ... story.html

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Re: EU vaccine hoarding

#36 Post by orathaic » Fri Feb 26, 2021 8:23 pm

The hope is that some of these vaccines can be quickly modified (and tested) to combat variants. I'm not sure of the details, but I suspect the mRNA one (which have lots of other downsides compared to the Oxford vaccine) will be easier to modify... And given previous approval, I think they will skip straight to stage 3 clinical trials, and target specific variants.

This will make distribution and logistics even more messy. Overall, I am not surprised there are some issues with public acceptance, I am just glad that it seems to be politics of nationality rather than of trust in institutions which usually rears it's head in anti-vaxxer conversations...(i meán, both are shit, but in this case national politics seems much less evil, especially if the unused vaccines are redistributed ASAP).
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Re: EU vaccine hoarding

#37 Post by Octavious » Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:15 pm

The sooner the better. These things come with expiration dates, after all. If we get to the stage where the likes of Germany starts throwing them away that would take the negative publicity to a new level.
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Re: EU vaccine hoarding

#38 Post by Octavious » Thu Mar 04, 2021 4:30 pm

Wow... The EU's efforts to disgrace itself continue at pace. Now they've decided to steal Australia's vaccines...

https://www.ft.com/content/bed655ac-928 ... 15284798c8

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-ita ... a-12235848

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Re: EU vaccine hoarding

#39 Post by flash2015 » Thu Mar 04, 2021 6:44 pm

:lol: More hyperventilation.

The EU should be applauded for being willing to export vaccine so early in the rollout especially with so many still people dying there. The US isn't going to export anything until its done. And China can export because it has little local spread (at least that is the official story).

As it says in the article, this all comes back to Astrazeneca screwing up their production rollout and missing schedules by huge amounts (the EU will get 40% of what was promised in Q1). This also comes against the backdrop of other companies (Moderna/Pfizer/J&J) actually moving up schedules...so much so that Biden is now promising that there will be enough vaccine for every adult by the end of May:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/wat ... ne-rollout

If the US was exporting and we had the same issue with a supplier, I would assume the US would be doing the same thing or threatening to do it. It would likely be politically untenable otherwise (e.g. Biden puts America Last! etc.).

I know there will be the argument from Oct "but this will cost lives!!!". In this case it absolutely won't. Australia has almost zero COVID at the moment...so the main thing that the vaccine helps with there currently is to get the country closer to opening up the border again. Much as I want that (I really, really want to be able to visit my parents), I don't think this is a big deal. Australia will be producing the AstraZeneca vaccine locally soon anyway:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/202 ... g/13140104

One advantage that the US had over the EU is much more ability to mobilize nationally...like with the Defense Production Act which Biden appears to be using much more liberally that Trump did. Perhaps the EU needs something similar but that may be too much power centralization to handle for many countries remaining in the bloc.

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Re: EU vaccine hoarding

#40 Post by Octavious » Thu Mar 04, 2021 7:47 pm

flash2015 wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 6:44 pm
More hyperventilation
The mental images you must conjure up inside your head are truly fascinating, but I'm afraid reality and your fantasy world have little in common :smirk:
flash2015 wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 6:44 pm
The EU should be applauded for being willing to export vaccine so early in the rollout especially with so many still people dying there. The US isn't going to export anything until its done. And China can export because it has little local spread (at least that is the official story).

Vaccines developed with a large amount of US money and effort are doing a great deal around the world, but you're quite right that Biden is enthusiastically following in the footsteps of Trump's America First policy. European vaccine nationalism and US vaccine nationalism is sacrificing the West's moral high ground whilst the authoritarian bastards of the world are busy buying friends and influence.
flash2015 wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 6:44 pm
I know there will be the argument from Oct "but this will cost lives!!!".
Nope, because my arguments tend to make sense, which is where they differ from your fantasies. It's possible that lives will be lost in Australia because of this, but that depends on some rather unfortunate events taking place which are far from certain. If the EU could be relied upon to distribute and use its vaccines this would likely save lives, but its actions very much indicate otherwise.

No, what this has done is damage Europe's reputation as a reliable partner and honest player on the world stage. What does Europe want to stand for? What does Europe stand for?
flash2015 wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 6:44 pm
One advantage that the US had over the EU is much more ability to mobilize nationally...like with the Defense Production Act which Biden appears to be using much more liberally that Trump did. Perhaps the EU needs something similar but that may be too much power centralization to handle for many countries remaining in the bloc.
It's an argument I've made for some time. The EU in its current form doesn't work. A United States of Europe could work, but you'd never convince more than a core of nations to join. A looser EU in something closer to its original trade group formation could work, and would probably attract the UK as a member, but it's hard to see the current leadership admitting the failure of their project and allowing it to happen.

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