Why did God create Covid-19?

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Crazy Anglican
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Re: Why did God create Covid-19?

#61 Post by Crazy Anglican » Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:37 am

Ah that's what happens when Mrs. Anglican interrupts my editing process to have me make dinner for the Anglets. :-) C'est la Guerre

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Re: Why did God create Covid-19?

#62 Post by orathaic » Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:42 am

Humans are not immortal, and we will all face death as far as we know.
That raises a question, should humans be immortal, we know of at least some jellyfish which can revert to their, eh, larval state? And essentially keep recycling themselves. And in a sense we live on through our children...

But there are deep biological (and perhaps information theoretic) considerations. Cells eventually break down (and I think we can blame entropy) and the either become senescent, or cancerous (or broken down by the immune system and used for parts, I think). Very few cancers outlive their host (though there is a sexually transmitted cancer in dogs which seems to be at least 500 years old). Regardless, I don't think immortality of our genes via cancer is what people desire. What we actually want is something of our personality to live on. And it is arguable that certain piece of art can do this. That work on ai analysing and learning to predict your next social media post could create an interactive piece of art to preserve your social media presence... But if we actually want to live forever, and can prevent both cancer and senescence, that may be possible within our lifetimes.

And I think death becoming optional would completely change our relationship with it. I think our life preserving tech has already become inhumane and keeping people alive but suffering has caused serious changes to how societies accept death.

For the record, I don't believe in any afterlife. And more than that, I believe that makes this one life we actually live all the more important. You Only Live Once: so make the most* of it.

*for whatever characteristic of life you think is worth making, the only meaning life has is that which we create for ourselves (or that whihj is given to us by our culture and we never really have to think about because some philosopher/religious teacher has already done the thinking previously).

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Re: Why did God create Covid-19?

#63 Post by Crazy Anglican » Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:55 am

orathaic wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:42 am
Humans are not immortal, and we will all face death as far as we know.
That raises a question, should humans be immortal,
For that matter is it really possible anyway in a Universe that isn't?

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Re: Why did God create Covid-19?

#64 Post by Crazy Anglican » Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:00 am

orathaic wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:42 am
For the record, I don't believe in any afterlife. And more than that, I believe that makes this one life we actually live all the more important. You Only Live Once: so make the most* of it.
The converse can be equally true though.
I believe in an afterlife. And more than that, I believe that it makes this life we have now all the more important. Each decision may have Eternal consequences.

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Re: Why did God create Covid-19?

#65 Post by Crazy Anglican » Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:06 am

Le Plume wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:58 am
Its a good question.
Consider this prayer from 1662 England.
I am not sure that a 358 year old prayer is quite that relevant to modern Christian thought.
O most mighty and merciful God, in this time of grievous sickness, we flee unto thee for succor. Deliver us, we beseech thee, from our peril; give strength and skill to all those who minister to the sick; prosper the means made use of for their cure; and grant that, perceiving how frail and uncertain our life is, we may apply our hearts unto that heavenly wisdom which leadeth to eternal life; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen. (1928 BCP, 45).
This one's only 98 years old and clearly shows God as a friend supporting them through hardship.

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Re: Why did God create Covid-19?

#66 Post by orathaic » Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:57 am

Crazy Anglican wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:55 am
orathaic wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:42 am
Humans are not immortal, and we will all face death as far as we know.
That raises a question, should humans be immortal,
For that matter is it really possible anyway in a Universe that isn't?
That's a really good question, ultimately I think entropy says no. But I think practically a few billion years is so much beyond our current comprehension as to make no difference (even without aging, in a billion year you are likely to be killed in an accident).

But honestly, I don't think we full appreciate how much our perspective will change once death become optional.

Still, I have to admit the promise of eternal life beyond the limits of this universe is greater. I just believe it is fraudulent, and I fact there is nothing beyond.

Or at least nothing we will ever experience

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Re: Why did God create Covid-19?

#67 Post by orathaic » Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:01 am

NB I think evolution has found that the easier way for keep our genes alive (effectively 'immortal') is through our children, and it cares for little else. How our culture is evolving to keep our memes alive is entirely another matter.

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Re: Why did God create Covid-19?

#68 Post by orathaic » Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:12 am

Crazy Anglican wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:00 am
orathaic wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:42 am
For the record, I don't believe in any afterlife. And more than that, I believe that makes this one life we actually live all the more important. You Only Live Once: so make the most* of it.
The converse can be equally true though.
I believe in an afterlife. And more than that, I believe that it makes this life we have now all the more important. Each decision may have Eternal consequences.
I believe the both positions are also open to the reverse; believing that in life all the matters is winning because there are no consequences, or indeed the belief that it doesn't matter what you do, so long as you get into heaven (like when the church was selling indulgences, or those who believe that dying a martyrdom grants great heavenly rewards)

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Re: Why did God create Covid-19?

#69 Post by principians » Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:12 am

My nonchristian but panentheistic answer:

Suffering is not bad. The panentheistic god is not personal, but if it were, she would not like suffering, but she would not dislike it either, as if there were no suffering people would stop trying to avoid destructive situations. It's like pain. If you felt no pain probably you would not be alive by now.

So, suffering is not evil. Evil would be, in any case, to create avoidable suffering because you are so stupidly superb as Trump, and you are unable to follow experts recommendations to deal with a pandemic.

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Re: Why did God create Covid-19?

#70 Post by principians » Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:25 am

Sorry for my poor non native redaction, I'm realizing my previous answee would be less confusing changing "as if there were no suffering people" by "because if there was no suffering, then people"

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Re: Why did God create Covid-19?

#71 Post by orathaic » Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:23 pm

You could argue that this pandemic was caused by humans and how we treat animals (zoonotic disease jumping species, as with bird flu, and swine flu before it. Recall experts were warning that either of these flus could have become a pandemic).

We know historically most new plagues come from animals. And that cities tend to concentrate both people and (historically) animals into such a small space in such large numbers that eventually a disease jumping species becomes inevitable. (factory farming is the highest densities of animals we have seen, and likely some of the biggest risks).

This was a major factor in Europeans (spreading disease) to the americas (as the thousand or so years of plagues and city living across eurasia left a population carrying diseases which had selectively bred humans in Europe with resistant immune systems (see also: Guns, Germs, and Steel by Jared Diamond).

We failed to contain this virus, because it is really good at spreading from one asymptomatic carrier to the next, faster than we can contact trace.
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Re: Why did God create Covid-19?

#72 Post by e.m.c^42 » Fri Oct 23, 2020 2:28 pm

Jamie, re: conceptualising religion - I don't know if this will help you, but I found T.M. Luhrmann's work to be quite informative and closest to how I view it in general.
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Re: Why did God create Covid-19?

#73 Post by Fluminator » Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:07 pm

orathaic wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:57 am
Crazy Anglican wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:55 am
orathaic wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:42 am


That raises a question, should humans be immortal,
For that matter is it really possible anyway in a Universe that isn't?
That's a really good question, ultimately I think entropy says no. But I think practically a few billion years is so much beyond our current comprehension as to make no difference (even without aging, in a billion year you are likely to be killed in an accident).

But honestly, I don't think we full appreciate how much our perspective will change once death become optional.

Still, I have to admit the promise of eternal life beyond the limits of this universe is greater. I just believe it is fraudulent, and I fact there is nothing beyond.

Or at least nothing we will ever experience
Have you ever looked into out of body experience and astral projection and things like that? I assumed it was the same as dreaming but watching a lot of youtube videos on it piqued my interest. I've never experienced it myself lol but a lot of these people claim the fact they happen as good evidence we can survive the death of our body.

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Re: Why did God create Covid-19?

#74 Post by principians » Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:15 pm

Astral projection is real, but it's evidence of nothing, it's just a hallucination.

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Re: Why did God create Covid-19?

#75 Post by Fluminator » Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:37 pm

There are so many stories of people seeing things and knowing things they shouldn't have been able to see after projecting. I only recently started reading about it but is it generally accepted those stories are all bogus?

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Re: Why did God create Covid-19?

#76 Post by brainbomb » Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:22 pm

God also created the eventual vaccine for covid.

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Re: Why did God create Covid-19?

#77 Post by Octavious » Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:38 pm

And Justin Bieber... Swings and roundabouts...

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Re: Why did God create Covid-19?

#78 Post by orathaic » Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:29 pm

@Fulminator, it would take me significant evidence before I believed the mind could exist beyond the brain. We have so much data on how the brain functions, and how damage to it impairs that function (because there is very little human experimentation, and thus nearly all the studies are on accidents, and the rare split brain procedure for extreme medication resistant epilepsy).

@brainbomb, are you saying your concept of God created the problem so humans would be tested and create a vaccine?

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Re: Why did God create Covid-19?

#79 Post by principians » Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:53 pm

@fluminator it depends what exactly you mean by ”seeing things and knowing things they shouldn't have been able to see after projecting". When i said astral projection is hallucination i don't mean it's bogus. It's a very specific brain state. Kind of a dream phase that not everyone, but quite a lot of people can achieve. But there's no further mistery. It's just your brain making you 'see' things

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Re: Why did God create Covid-19?

#80 Post by Jamiet99uk » Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:41 pm

Crazy Anglican wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:22 am
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:00 pm
there's an afterlife so it will all be fine and God's evil behaviour in this world doesn't matter because he can make it better in heaven?
Wow, you are pretty far off there. No that’s not my claim at all. The afterlife part of the equation is central to most Christian doctrine, sure, but the “God’s evil behaviour” part is a wild extrapolation brought on by your own argument and has nothing to do with my own.

Humans are not immortal, and we will all face death as far as we know.

There is a simple question that isn’t loaded one way or the other. I think we can agree that humans are not immortal under those terms.
Largely the Christian stance is to say. “We all will die, yes, but on the testimony of Jesus Christ we have the promise of eternal life”. Now there is a huge discussion to be had about why that testimony is or isn’t trustworthy. Since we are talking about Christian worldview though and not the reliability of Christ as a saviour; then the only relevant question should be “Is this consistent within the framework of Christianity?”. Your request was for a coherent answer (I read that as internally consistent with little direct evidence to the contrary, but if your definition is different please let me know). So yeah, God promises an afterlife that can be pretty groovy, but that’s not the whole picture.
As Christians, we presume the existence of God who promises eternal life and who created earth that humans were never meant to survive on for long. What of death? I suppose it is tempting to say God is personally responsible for each death no matter how peaceful, tragic, painful, heroic, or lonely. Is there a kernel of truth there? Maybe. He does seem to have designed a world where we will all die one day, so death does seem to be part of His plan. Is designing a world where people will die and move on to another life evil? No, it certainly isn’t an act of evil. At least it seems to work since we’re both here having this little talk. Simply put, an omnipotent and omniscient being bent on causing death and destruction could have quite a better job of it. That is if He were evil and malicious. So, the next step is a curious one.
Then we go to the next step that simply isn’t logical. Why did God design this or that thing (black widow spiders, cobras, leukemia, covid-19, etc.) simply to cause death? I don’t simply disagree with it; it isn’t a logical statement. There are at last two assumptions that are made that cannot be reliably known by you. God’s will in creating something, and the then the reason for that thing’s existence. It’s like saying If God exists, He created dogs to bite us. Therefore, He must be evil because bad things happen, blah, blah, blah. It’s too narrow. It presumes too much for a very specific reason. Certainly it is what I have surmised form reading your posts, s if I am misrepresenting you I am open to your setting the record straight. Do you have reliable means of deriving the motives for a being you “cannot conceive of” and speaking about seems “utter gibberish” to you?
As a Christian, I emphasis on the gospels, He expects us to take care of one another and love one another within the framework of this world that wasn’t designed to support us eternally anyway. Do you really suppose that among the teachers, doctors, nurses, policemen, and all of the other essential workers that there aren’t a fair few Christians willingly putting their lives on the line daily to help others as God commands? (You might say that I am co-opting human good for God’s glory, but I am one of those teachers; and I know why I am there). I acknowledge many others who do the same work for different reasons. I wouldn’t presume to call any of them mad simply because I didn’t understand their rationale for doing good in the world.
I have a number of questions in response to this.

What reason do you have for believing there is an "afterlife"? I have never encountered any evidence for the existence of such a place.

If an eternal afterlife of joy awaits us, what is the purpose of the temporary, difficult, painful material world we currently inhabit? Is it merely a game created by God to test us?

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