Why did God create Covid-19?

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Fluminator
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Re: Why did God create Covid-19?

#41 Post by Fluminator » Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:13 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:21 am
Genuine question for anyone who believes in "God".

Why would he/she/it create the Covid-19 virus?

Why did the Pope and a gathering of top religious leaders just hold a public event where they prayed for God to help our scientists find a cure / vaccine more quickly? Surely if God is real, he could just cause Covid-19 to stop, now, this second. So why don't they pray for him to do that? Is it because he doesn't really exist?
I believe in God!

I don't believe God created the Covid-19 virus.

The pope is probably praying to God asking for a cure to be found so lives can be saved. (Although I'm not the pope so I can't be sure)

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Re: Why did God create Covid-19?

#42 Post by Fluminator » Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:22 pm

Reading more, it sounds like you're just attacking a very narrow view on the Christian God.
I recommend you don't assume all beliefs in God are the patriarchal western fundamentalist catholic/evangelical God. There are more worldviews of God out there in the world and it's kind of eurocentric to assume otherwise.

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Re: Why did God create Covid-19?

#43 Post by Fluminator » Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:25 pm

Macchiavelli wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:18 pm
I think that by 2020 we all know there are no Gods of any kind.

We're not cave-dwellers trying to figure out where the sun goes at night, we're not politicians in medieval Europe trying to win popular opinion by inventing Zeus or Superman or God or Aphrodite; we've been to the heavens and there is no God there, just us. Science is real, magic is fake.
This is old news.

Zeus did not hit us with Coronavirus, nor did jesus or Allah or Iron Man.

This is science, like the plague, like everything else we've ever encountered.

Science is real, religion is a lie, we have proven this time and time again.

Science is believing because the facts prove you are right, religion is believing because the facts prove you wrong.
"We've been to space and there wasn't a God in there watching us. Therefore God is fake."

This is extraordinarily naïve. Like this is "Christian creates a strawman of atheism" level of naïve.

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Re: Why did God create Covid-19?

#44 Post by Fluminator » Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:32 pm

orathaic wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:19 am
To look at the Universe and conclude it was made for us is hubris. There is so much indifference, so much wonder beyond our comprehension, so many billions of years of life before us (only on this one tiny planet). To look at all that and conclude we are the reason for existence is the most self-indulgent piece of BS you can come up with.

Comforting, perhaps. But it does lead to all sorts of contradictions, like the problem of evil, or the conflict between 'free will' and predestination.

To put it the way the (fictional) Minbari would explain it. We are the Universe consciously trying to understand itself.
Yeah, it's so arrogant for people to assume if there was a God it would tailor the universe to be a perfect paradise for humans. And that any less is a monstrous evil.

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Re: Why did God create Covid-19?

#45 Post by Fluminator » Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:39 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:16 pm
orathaic wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 1:51 pm
I for one can tell you that in my conception of God, my puny human brain is not capable of comprehending the vastness, complexity and totality of it.
Then how do you believe you know anything about "God" at all?
The universe is vast and complex and deeper than we can imagine. I hold no smug superiority to the Christians trying to explain deep things like meaning, existence, consciousness, and purpose through a God with human characteristics. Humans are the most complicated thing we know of so it's honestly probably not as far off as it can be. But orathaic (and me) are saying that even that pales in how complicated God has to be. It has to.

It makes more sense to me than your belief where humans are the current pinnacle of the universe and there's literally nothing deeper going on beyond that.
Like there's a lot of arrogance in the post that Macchiavelli wrote where he said humans have basically figured out the universe already because we went to space. lol
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Re: Why did God create Covid-19?

#46 Post by Jamiet99uk » Thu Oct 22, 2020 4:38 pm

Fluminator wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:39 pm

It makes more sense to me than your belief where humans are the current pinnacle of the universe and there's literally nothing deeper going on beyond that.
Where did I say I believed anything like this?

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Re: Why did God create Covid-19?

#47 Post by Jamiet99uk » Thu Oct 22, 2020 6:22 pm

Fluminator wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:13 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:21 am
Genuine question for anyone who believes in "God".

Why would he/she/it create the Covid-19 virus?

Why did the Pope and a gathering of top religious leaders just hold a public event where they prayed for God to help our scientists find a cure / vaccine more quickly? Surely if God is real, he could just cause Covid-19 to stop, now, this second. So why don't they pray for him to do that? Is it because he doesn't really exist?
I believe in God!

I don't believe God created the Covid-19 virus.
Do you believe God designed the world and that the virus is part of God's designs? If not, do you believe God did *not* design the world?

Did Satan create the virus?

Why do viruses exist, and did God envisage them when he made the world? If he did not, surely this means that God is either *not* omnipotent, or *not* omniscient, or what?

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Re: Why did God create Covid-19?

#48 Post by Fluminator » Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:33 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 4:38 pm
Fluminator wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:39 pm

It makes more sense to me than your belief where humans are the current pinnacle of the universe and there's literally nothing deeper going on beyond that.
Where did I say I believed anything like this?
Are you denying it? What do you believe then? Tearing down beliefs is one thing, but defending your own is a bit harder.
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 6:22 pm
Fluminator wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:13 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:21 am
Genuine question for anyone who believes in "God".

Why would he/she/it create the Covid-19 virus?

Why did the Pope and a gathering of top religious leaders just hold a public event where they prayed for God to help our scientists find a cure / vaccine more quickly? Surely if God is real, he could just cause Covid-19 to stop, now, this second. So why don't they pray for him to do that? Is it because he doesn't really exist?
I believe in God!

I don't believe God created the Covid-19 virus.
Do you believe God designed the world and that the virus is part of God's designs? If not, do you believe God did *not* design the world?

Did Satan create the virus?

Why do viruses exist, and did God envisage them when he made the world? If he did not, surely this means that God is either *not* omnipotent, or *not* omniscient, or what?
I believe God worked through evolution.

No

Viruses exist because of mutations that happen in DNA because of radiation or other things often. I believe God is atemporal so if God is conscious than yes God would know those would exist.

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Re: Why did God create Covid-19?

#49 Post by Crazy Anglican » Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:22 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:46 am
You're mad.
Lol, thank you for the diagnosis doctor. Forgive me if I notice that your go to strategy seems to be attack the arguer not the argument.



It is still a strawman.


XOXOXO

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Re: Why did God create Covid-19?

#50 Post by Jamiet99uk » Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:56 pm

Fluminator wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:33 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 4:38 pm
Do you believe God designed the world and that the virus is part of God's designs? If not, do you believe God did *not* design the world?

Did Satan create the virus?

Why do viruses exist, and did God envisage them when he made the world? If he did not, surely this means that God is either *not* omnipotent, or *not* omniscient, or what?
I believe God worked through evolution.

No

Viruses exist because of mutations that happen in DNA because of radiation or other things often. I believe God is atemporal so if God is conscious than yes God would know those would exist.
Ok so in your belief, God works through evolution and viruses exist because of mutations.

Did God intend things to work this way, or have they gotten out of his control in a way that he did not envisage?

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Re: Why did God create Covid-19?

#51 Post by Jamiet99uk » Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:00 pm

Crazy Anglican wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:22 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:46 am
You're mad.
Lol, thank you for the diagnosis doctor. Forgive me if I notice that your go to strategy seems to be attack the arguer not the argument.

It is still a strawman.
What is your argument? From your initial post in this thread it appears your argument is "there's an afterlife so it will all be fine and God's evil behaviour in this world doesn't matter because he can make it better in heaven?"

Is that right?

If it is not, please state your case.

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Re: Why did God create Covid-19?

#52 Post by Fluminator » Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:08 pm

Yeah, unless you give your beliefs, I'm done. It's not fun having a conversation if you just only ever go on the offense.

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Re: Why did God create Covid-19?

#53 Post by Jamiet99uk » Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:16 pm

Fluminator wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:08 pm
Yeah, unless you give your beliefs, I'm done. It's not fun having a conversation if you just only ever go on the offense.
I'm a necessary atheist because I have never been able to understand any concept of God. I cannot believe in that which I cannot conceive of. So in the absence of any almighty that I am able to imagine, I am left with the belief that there is none.

I have a personal philosophy which I can share if you're interested. I have some theories on how the universe began which again I could talk about if it matters to you.

But in terms of religious belief, I have absolutely none, because the very concept of God makes no sense to me, and never has. Threads like this are partly an expression of that. They are not trolling. I am serious. You talk of God but you speak gibberish.
Last edited by Jamiet99uk on Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why did God create Covid-19?

#54 Post by Octavious » Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:16 pm

So what you're after, Jamie, is a description of the ineffable plan? Maybe you want someone to argue that the Coronavirus was created for the sole purpose of bringing two medical researchers together so that they get married, have children, and the child's great grandson invents the device that saves the planet from being wiped out by a massive solar flare?

Or, maybe there is no unfairness. Maybe the universe God created is a mulitverse of infinite parallel universes and the soul of the child who dies in this universe lives a long and happy life in another. Ultimately you are are being critical of a universe you only have a very limited understanding of, and in the grand scheme of things all of us are little different from the ignorant people in the 17th century.

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Re: Why did God create Covid-19?

#55 Post by Jamiet99uk » Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:18 pm

Octavious wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:16 pm
So what you're after, Jamie, is a description of the ineffable plan? Maybe you want someone to argue that the Coronavirus was created for the sole purpose of bringing two medical researchers together so that they get married, have children, and the child's great grandson invents the device that saves the planet from being wiped out by a massive solar flare?

Or, maybe there is no unfairness. Maybe the universe God created is a mulitverse of infinite parallel universes and the soul of the child who dies in this universe lives a long and happy life in another. Ultimately you are are being critical of a universe you only have a very limited understanding of, and in the grand scheme of things all of us are little different from the ignorant people in the 17th century.
Then why do some people pretend they understand? Why do some Christians say "God loves you" or "God wants this or that?" How could they know?

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Re: Why did God create Covid-19?

#56 Post by Octavious » Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:24 pm

The ones that say God loves you do so because, I assume, they feel a profound sense of love. The ones that say God wants this or that probably attribute God to their instinctive morality, and I dare say some are just using religion to control others.

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Re: Why did God create Covid-19?

#57 Post by Jamiet99uk » Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:50 pm

Octavious wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:24 pm
The ones that say God loves you do so because, I assume, they feel a profound sense of love. The ones that say God wants this or that probably attribute God to their instinctive morality, and I dare say some are just using religion to control others.
You place yourself in none of these camps, it seems?

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Re: Why did God create Covid-19?

#58 Post by Octavious » Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:31 pm

No, I've never actually believed. I'd quite like to, there's no feeling within me that the idea of a God is impossible that would prevent it, I have a lot of affection for the CofE and what they try to do, and I imagine that people with such a belief benefit from it in various ways, but I just don't. I have never understood those people who seem to treat belief as a choice that you can consciously make. For me you either believe something or you don't, and I don't.
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Re: Why did God create Covid-19?

#59 Post by Crazy Anglican » Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:22 am

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:00 pm
there's an afterlife so it will all be fine and God's evil behaviour in this world doesn't matter because he can make it better in heaven?
Wow, you are pretty far off there. No that’s not my claim at all. The afterlife part of the equation is central to most Christian doctrine, sure, but the “God’s evil behaviour” part is a wild extrapolation brought on by your own argument and has nothing to do with my own.

Humans are not immortal, and we will all face death as far as we know.

There is a simple question that isn’t loaded one way or the other. I think we can agree that humans are not immortal under those terms.
Largely the Christian stance is to say. “We all will die, yes, but on the testimony of Jesus Christ we have the promise of eternal life”. Now there is a huge discussion to be had about why that testimony is or isn’t trustworthy. Since we are talking about Christian worldview though and not the reliability of Christ as a saviour; then the only relevant question should be “Is this consistent within the framework of Christianity?”. Your request was for a coherent answer (I read that as internally consistent with little direct evidence to the contrary, but if your definition is different please let me know). So yeah, God promises an afterlife that can be pretty groovy, but that’s not the whole picture.
As Christians, we presume the existence of God who promises eternal life and who created earth that humans were never meant to survive on for long. What of death? I suppose it is tempting to say God is personally responsible for each death no matter how peaceful, tragic, painful, heroic, or lonely. Is there a kernel of truth there? Maybe. He does seem to have designed a world where we will all die one day, so death does seem to be part of His plan. Is designing a world where people will die and move on to another life evil? No, it certainly isn’t an act of evil. At least it seems to work since we’re both here having this little talk. Simply put, an omnipotent and omniscient being bent on causing death and destruction could have quite a better job of it. That is if He were evil and malicious. So, the next step is a curious one.
Then we go to the next step that simply isn’t logical. Why did God design this or that thing (black widow spiders, cobras, leukemia, covid-19, etc.) simply to cause death? I don’t simply disagree with it; it isn’t a logical statement. There are at last two assumptions that are made that cannot be reliably known by you. God’s will in creating something, and the then the reason for that thing’s existence. It’s like saying If God exists, He created dogs to bite us. Therefore, He must be evil because bad things happen, blah, blah, blah. It’s too narrow. It presumes too much for a very specific reason. Certainly it is what I have surmised form reading your posts, s if I am misrepresenting you I am open to your setting the record straight. Do you have reliable means of deriving the motives for a being you “cannot conceive of” and speaking about seems “utter gibberish” to you?
As a Christian, I emphasis on the gospels, He expects us to take care of one another and love one another within the framework of this world that wasn’t designed to support us eternally anyway. Do you really suppose that among the teachers, doctors, nurses, policemen, and all of the other essential workers that there aren’t a fair few Christians willingly putting their lives on the line daily to help others as God commands? (You might say that I am co-opting human good for God’s glory, but I am one of those teachers; and I know why I am there). I acknowledge many others who do the same work for different reasons. I wouldn’t presume to call any of them mad simply because I didn’t understand their rationale for doing good in the world.

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Re: Why did God create Covid-19?

#60 Post by orathaic » Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:25 am

The universe is vast and complex and deeper than we can imagine. I hold no smug superiority to the Christians trying to explain deep things like meaning, existence, consciousness, and purpose through a God with human characteristics. Humans are the most complicated thing we know of so it's honestly probably not as far off as it can be. But orathaic (and me) are saying that even that pales in how complicated God has to be. It has to.
I endorse this.

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