Vote wait times (comparison)

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Randomizer
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Re: Vote wait times (comparison)

#41 Post by Randomizer » Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:56 pm

There have been documented cases of in person votes at a polling place disappearing by the time they are certified at the main recording place. Official count certified is over a hundred votes lower than official votes shown for polling places in heavily registered Democratic areas. (I can't find my post where I linked to the source)

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Re: Vote wait times (comparison)

#42 Post by orathaic » Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:58 pm

If one goes missing, or if one envelope is opened before arriving at the polling place, then that will be noticed.
I am suggesting that they need a precaution against fires destroying some (or many) or these votes. Would the cancel all the votes cast this way and inform the general public that they have to vote again on election day?

But yes, Oct's proposed issue is the fear of what happens with untrustworthy staff (perhaps theu may 'lose' votes going towards their unwanted candidate...) I believe there is larger risk of accidental destruction..

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Re: Vote wait times (comparison)

#43 Post by RoganJosh » Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:29 pm

I don't think that's ever happened, so I don't know what the formal rules are.

Usually, if there are discrepancies, you'd check whether they're big enough to alter the outcome of the election. If they are, then you'd have to redo the election. If they're not, then there's no point in redoing the election. So, to answer your first question, no, you would definitely not cancel the vote on election day, for it could only make things worse.

If you're worried about staff removing ballots, then practices like the 'perfect matched signature' seems way more problematic to me. I mean, that's a staffer deciding whether to (legally) keep or remove a ballot on a somewhat arbitrary and highly subjective personal judgement, after first identifying who the voter is!

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Re: Vote wait times (comparison)

#44 Post by Octavious » Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:46 pm

RoganJosh wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:24 pm
@Oct You ignored people that can't get off work. Including also people that might or might not be called into work on the morning of election day. Nowadays, this is a problem also in countries that designate election day as a holiday. Not to mention places like the US where elections are held on a (in most states) regular Tuesday.

@oratic If you've got arbitrary staff looking at votes, then you've got bigger problems. But, these votes are tracked from when they're casted until election day. If one goes missing, or if one envelope is opened before arriving at the polling place, then that will be noticed.
How long do you have to vote on election day where you're from? In the UK it's 7am to 10pm, which gives ample time to vote for all but people with the more extreme shift patterns. Ideally, as I said earlier, voting would be over a weekend to give a couple of days (during which electoral silence can be maintained) to make difficulties even less likely. Those few who work in professions that make even this voting period problematic (airline pilot, long distance lorry driver etc) would be eligible to apply for a postal vote.

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Re: Vote wait times (comparison)

#45 Post by TrPrado » Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:06 pm

I've never really thought about it, but I have only ever voted in person for primaries, which means my own wait times have averaged a lot faster than most people around where I live

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Re: Vote wait times (comparison)

#46 Post by Matticus13 » Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:20 pm

Went and voted. I got to vote within two minutes of walking in the door.
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Re: Vote wait times (comparison)

#47 Post by TrPrado » Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:10 pm

Octavious wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:46 pm
RoganJosh wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:24 pm
@Oct You ignored people that can't get off work. Including also people that might or might not be called into work on the morning of election day. Nowadays, this is a problem also in countries that designate election day as a holiday. Not to mention places like the US where elections are held on a (in most states) regular Tuesday.

@oratic If you've got arbitrary staff looking at votes, then you've got bigger problems. But, these votes are tracked from when they're casted until election day. If one goes missing, or if one envelope is opened before arriving at the polling place, then that will be noticed.
How long do you have to vote on election day where you're from? In the UK it's 7am to 10pm, which gives ample time to vote for all but people with the more extreme shift patterns. Ideally, as I said earlier, voting would be over a weekend to give a couple of days (during which electoral silence can be maintained) to make difficulties even less likely. Those few who work in professions that make even this voting period problematic (airline pilot, long distance lorry driver etc) would be eligible to apply for a postal vote.
In the US it depends on the state. On the day of it ranges anywhere between 11 and 15 hours (New York is the only state on the high end of that last I checked, most states are 13 or 14 hours) that the polls are open. In Oklahoma you can vote from 7am to 7pm, with early voting on the Thursday-Saturday prior but in much shorter time slots.
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Re: Vote wait times (comparison)

#48 Post by RoganJosh » Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:15 am

Ideally, I think we agree with each other...

I think early voting is much much better than mail in voting. With mail in votes, you have no clue if people are voting while being peer pressured or not.

I don't think anyone should have to apply for an early or postal vote. Not do I think anyone should have to register to vote...

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Re: Vote wait times (comparison)

#49 Post by flash2015 » Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:56 pm

orathaic wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 5:53 pm
Octavious wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:54 pm
Ok. In all honesty it sounds a little unnerving having your name, address, and who you voted for sat in a government envelope, but the risk is probably low enough for people used to the system to not be concerned. Personally I'm not persuaded, but that may be more about what I'm used to than objective thought.

There is still the problem of violating the principle of electoral silence, however, which matters a lot to a great many people. All early votes will be cast in the full glare of political campaigning, making maintaining a free voting environment problematic.
Now that you describe it, I realise it may be possible they have an encryption, so you enter your name&address, and they add a secret key, and it generates a code which is printed on the outside of your envelope (don't know that they do this. Just that it could be done).

That way, arbitrary staff can still violate the rules and look at your vote, but they can't trace it back to you.

Of course that doesn't protect against accidentally destroying a huge number of votes, and being unable to trace who cast them... Which may be a greater concern than malicious staff.
This is why most absentee votes consist of two envelopes, an outer envelope which has your identifying information and a second inner envelope which hides your vote.

At least to my understanding these absentee votes are processed in two stages, first validating the signature, any notary (if required), checking you haven't voted twice etc (I believe this can be done before the election in most states). Then the vote is removed from the outer envelope and moved to a second pile. At the time the second pile is processed for counting (I believe this is after the election) there is no identifying information pointing back to the originator of the vote.

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Re: Vote wait times (comparison)

#50 Post by flash2015 » Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:40 pm

Octavious wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:04 pm
I am not interested in your justifications and excuses, flash. You have been informed of my position. Either act on it or I will ask the mods to act for you.
With your record, I think I can summarize in only two symbols what the mods response will be:

:troll: :lol:

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Re: Vote wait times (comparison)

#51 Post by Octavious » Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:54 pm

Continue as you are and you'll find out soon enough.

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Re: Vote wait times (comparison)

#52 Post by flash2015 » Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:56 pm

Octavious wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:54 pm
Continue as you are and you'll find out soon enough.
Go on then. Make your complaint.

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Re: Vote wait times (comparison)

#53 Post by kaner406 » Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:58 am

Back to the forum topic :

Just voted in an upcoming state election, Australia, QLD, compulsory voting, preferential voting used to determine the vote. No upper house in the QLD electoral system, this election all candidates represented a political party (no independents running in my electorate).

Early voting, 5 mins in, numbered all the boxes (1-5) and out. Less than 10 minutes in total (including finding a car park) No ID needed, Voted today because the early voting polling station was open when I happened to be shopping. Location = 10 mins by car. Usual polling place is a 7 Min walk on election day.
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New England Fire Squad
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Re: Vote wait times (comparison)

#54 Post by New England Fire Squad » Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:21 pm

RoganJosh wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:55 am
In Sweden, anyone who votes early can change their vote until election day. I know that's not in place in the US, but it's possible. And it makes your argument void.

If a shorter voting period means that fewer people vote, then that's the less good system. That's much more important than some idea that the vote should represent a snapshot.
This is also in place across much of the US

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Re: Vote wait times (comparison)

#55 Post by Octavious » Fri Oct 30, 2020 1:11 pm

New England Fire Squad wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:21 pm
This is also in place across much of the US
I tried looking into this in a bit more detail, and it seems a hell of a mess. Some states allow it, some don't, and what exactly is allowed varies wildly with some places where it is possible having quite restrictive deadlines and various hoops that must be jumped through. Changing your vote is not a trivial process, to say the least.

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