Yet another needless mass shooting

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StevenC.
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Re: Yet another needless mass shooting

#221 Post by StevenC. » Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:59 pm

Incrementalist wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:26 am
Is there any legal reason why the registered owner of a gun that is used in a robbery (and not reported missing) can't be sentenced to, say, 10 years in prison? Or for this teacher who discharged a gun in class to get 2 years in the slammer?


That is the most baffling thing I've read today and it's only noon where I am.
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Re: Yet another needless mass shooting

#222 Post by TrPrado » Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:03 pm

I assume that intentionally providing someone with a gun that is used in a crime would get someone sentenced with aiding and abetting.

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Re: Yet another needless mass shooting

#223 Post by Incrementalist » Sat Mar 17, 2018 5:26 am

"I assume that intentionally providing someone with a gun that is used in a crime would get someone sentenced with aiding and abetting."

What about negligently providing someone with a gun though? Banks have "know your customer" laws to prevent money laundering... should gun dealers also have to do due diligence on their customers, under severe penalty if they do not?

With regard to someone being burglarized whilst on vacation, I don't think it's reasonable to consider that criminal negligence, provided the gun was in a safe. If they left it on their porch, that would be a different story.
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Re: Yet another needless mass shooting

#224 Post by Randomizer » Sat Mar 24, 2018 4:02 pm

https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/24/us/penns ... index.html

A Pennsylvania school district is now arming it's students with rocks to throw at gun toting shooters. At least they have something they can use against the idiots that think this is safe and effective if they ever come around. If the students are lucky the school's pitcher will be in the room to defend them.

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Re: Yet another needless mass shooting

#225 Post by Octavious » Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:19 pm

Meanwhile, in a country with very strict gun legislation...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-g ... t-43654015

It's almost as if mass murders have no respect for the law

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Re: Yet another needless mass shooting

#226 Post by peterlund » Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:41 pm

Randomizer wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 4:02 pm
https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/24/us/penns ... index.html

A Pennsylvania school district is now arming it's students with rocks to throw at gun toting shooters. At least they have something they can use against the idiots that think this is safe and effective if they ever come around. If the students are lucky the school's pitcher will be in the room to defend them.
Lock the door with some really secure lock and then we just throw away the key. Then we don't need to bother about that "shithole country" any longer...

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Re: Yet another needless mass shooting

#227 Post by Octavious » Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:55 pm

What I don't understand is how we Europeans are so quick to preach at the US despite having plenty of our own massacres (with an exciting variety of actual machine guns, bombs, and vehicles), hundreds of miles of border wall to keep out immigrants, and ever increasing numbers of really nasty extremist politicians. Europe is hardly a shining beacon of fairness and opportunity. We are just as bad as the Yanks, but without the economic strength.

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Re: Yet another needless mass shooting

#228 Post by peterlund » Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:05 pm

Octavious wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:55 pm
What I don't understand is how we Europeans are so quick to preach at the US despite having plenty of our own massacres (with an exciting variety of actual machine guns, bombs, and vehicles), hundreds of miles of border wall to keep out immigrants, and ever increasing numbers of really nasty extremist politicians. Europe is hardly a shining beacon of fairness and opportunity. We are just as bad as the Yanks, but without the economic strength.
In what world and in what century do you live in? "Extremists in Europe". What about a shithead in the oval office using words like "shithole countries" in public?

"Economic strength" - What country are you talking about? It must be China or Germany (or Sweden) since the the country that the shithead heads, is way behind and is dropping fast, even faster after starting up trade wars against the economically stronger nations...

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Re: Yet another needless mass shooting

#229 Post by Incrementalist » Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:54 pm

peterlund wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:05 pm
"Economic strength" - What country are you talking about? It must be China or Germany (or Sweden) since the the country that the shithead heads, is way behind and is dropping fast, even faster after starting up trade wars against the economically stronger nations...
Most analyses still put the United States at the top of most economic rankings.

The US has its problems, but economic strength isn't really one of them, though its reliance on imports in critical areas does leave room for improvement.

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Re: Yet another needless mass shooting

#230 Post by Randomizer » Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:20 pm

https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/12/us/baseb ... index.html

Bringing a mini-baseball bat to a gun fight, is a solution? Maybe they're hoping the gunman will double over laughing to give the teacher a chance to close the distance?

https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/12/us/parkl ... index.html

Meanwhile as another example of why arming teachers is a bad idea. They aren't any more responsible in keeping track of where they leave their guns. Go to a bathroom and forget about your gun. Now if it had been money ….
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Re: Yet another needless mass shooting

#231 Post by flash2015 » Fri Apr 13, 2018 7:20 pm

Octavious wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:19 pm
Meanwhile, in a country with very strict gun legislation...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-g ... t-43654015

It's almost as if mass murders have no respect for the law
I love that logic! So if strong gun laws can only prevent 98% of gun related deaths (USA - 11.96 per 100K, UK - 0.23) not 100% there is no point in any gun restrictions at all! /s

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Re: Yet another needless mass shooting

#232 Post by Octavious » Fri Apr 13, 2018 7:48 pm

You've misunderstood the logic, flash. The argument is that strict gun controls does not eliminate gun massacres and we shouldn't pretend it will. Your figures are also bunk for a variety of reasons. A couple of which being that there has never been a significant gun culture in the UK regardless of laws, and that a US will have a vast number of weapons available after such laws are introduced. Saying that gun laws will turn the US into the UK is painfully naive.

I suspect that strict gun controls would reduce the number of massacres a little, and accidental deaths quite a lot, but it isn't a silver bullet by any stretch, and there is no appetite for strict gun controls anyway.

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Re: Yet another needless mass shooting

#233 Post by flash2015 » Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:32 pm

Octavious wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 7:48 pm
You've misunderstood the logic, flash. The argument is that strict gun controls does not eliminate gun massacres and we shouldn't pretend it will. Your figures are also bunk for a variety of reasons. A couple of which being that there has never been a significant gun culture in the UK regardless of laws, and that a US will have a vast number of weapons available after such laws are introduced. Saying that gun laws will turn the US into the UK is painfully naive.

I suspect that strict gun controls would reduce the number of massacres a little, and accidental deaths quite a lot, but it isn't a silver bullet by any stretch, and there is no appetite for strict gun controls anyway.
Again, your argument is warped. You keep on insisting on the "eliminate" word to set an impossible hurdle for any regulation. There are no "absolute" answers and I get tired of the argument being portrayed in absolutist terms. Just as in most things it is a balance between the freedom to have guns vs. the costs of them being so plentiful. The real argument is what cost are we willing to bear to keep so many guns?

You were the one that brought up the UK so I was only clarifying the argument you were making. You also created a nice strawman there too by suggesting that I was arguing that bringing in UK style gun laws to the US would suddenly change the US into the UK. I suggested no such thing. I don't believe there is an answer so easy...and any significant change would take years/decades.

I think the only thing we can agree on here is that the chances of anything significant actually changing here is small, especially with many gun owners so easily whipped up into a conspiracy theorist frenzy about people taking their guns so that we can become a dictatorship or some other failed state (a would-be dictator would be more likely to actually take advantage of the gun toting conspiracy theorists). Whatever minor changes that get made will most likely be rolled back in a few years (just like the Clinton-era regulations were).
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Re: Yet another needless mass shooting

#234 Post by Octavious » Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:00 am

flash2015 wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:32 pm
You also created a nice strawman there too by suggesting that I was arguing that bringing in UK style gun laws to the US would suddenly change the US into the UK. I suggested no such thing.
flash2015 wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 7:20 pm
I love that logic! So if strong gun laws can only prevent 98% of gun related deaths (USA - 11.96 per 100K, UK - 0.23) not 100% there is no point in any gun restrictions at all! /s
It's not a strawman if it's what you have just said :?
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Re: Yet another needless mass shooting

#235 Post by Randomizer » Fri Apr 20, 2018 4:20 am

https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/19/us/toddl ... index.html

No mention on whether the idiot that left a gun in his car had obtained it legally. I guess the NRA will defend his right to have it for protection. Now the NRA needs to lower the age for gun safety training to 3 years old.
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Re: Yet another needless mass shooting

#236 Post by flash2015 » Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:20 pm

Octavious wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:00 am
flash2015 wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:32 pm
You also created a nice strawman there too by suggesting that I was arguing that bringing in UK style gun laws to the US would suddenly change the US into the UK. I suggested no such thing.
flash2015 wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 7:20 pm
I love that logic! So if strong gun laws can only prevent 98% of gun related deaths (USA - 11.96 per 100K, UK - 0.23) not 100% there is no point in any gun restrictions at all! /s
It's not a strawman if it's what you have just said :?
Oh, I didn't realize you replied. Again, I only responded to you with facts about the UK after you brought up the UK. If you actually read my comments again, I have not argued anywhere here about specific actions that could or should be taken in the US. Thus you were arguing against an argument that I didn't make (i.e. a "strawman").

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Re: Yet another needless mass shooting

#237 Post by Randomizer » Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:09 pm

https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/23/us/toron ... index.html

Proof that you can train police to not shoot first and think later when confronting an armed suspect. Maybe the US police should improve training.

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Re: Yet another needless mass shooting

#238 Post by Octavious » Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:40 pm

It is proof that it's easy enough to commit mass murder whether guns are available or not. The Canadian police do seem to have done a decent job, although if they'd shot him in the leg a couple of times you wouldn't have blamed them.

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Re: Yet another needless mass shooting

#239 Post by Jamiet99uk » Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:04 pm

Octavious wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:40 pm
It is proof that it's easy enough to commit mass murder whether guns are available or not. The Canadian police do seem to have done a decent job, although if they'd shot him in the leg a couple of times you wouldn't have blamed them.
Would you support a massive increase in gun ownership in the UK, Octavious? Do you think it would make our country safer and reduce crime?

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Re: Yet another needless mass shooting

#240 Post by Randomizer » Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:05 pm

Typically police officers are trained for center of mass and maybe head shots for cases where there might be body armor. Arms and legs are harder targets especially if the person is in motion.

A recent civil lawsuit over unnecessary force in Tucson, Arizona where only one of three police officers fired at a mentally ill woman holding a knife down at her side was lost by the family. The decision was based on a "reasonable police officer's reaction" to the situation. The conclusion by some after the verdict is the average police officer is a moron that doesn't think until after firing.

Despite training, most police officers go into a situation where they are predisposed to open fire based upon being given wrong information or making poor assumptions about the suspect.

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