Violence in the US after killing by police.

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orathaic
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Violence in the US after killing by police.

#1 Post by orathaic » Sun May 31, 2020 9:42 am

I'm surprised there isn't already a thread, here is some framing:
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/202 ... lence.html

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Re: Violence in the US after killing by police.

#2 Post by Octavious » Sun May 31, 2020 11:07 am

Yank cops kill a Yank resisting arrested, and thousands of other Yanks use it as an excuse to nick a load of stuff and go on a rampage?

Just Yanks being Yanks. Who gives a damn?

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Re: Violence in the US after killing by police.

#3 Post by Tom Bombadil » Sun May 31, 2020 11:58 am

Yank cops MURDER a Yank BY CRUSHING HIS NECK FOR 7 MINUTES.
7

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Re: Violence in the US after killing by police.

#4 Post by Octavious » Sun May 31, 2020 12:05 pm

Tom Bombadil wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 11:58 am
Yank cops MURDER a Yank BY CRUSHING HIS NECK FOR 7 MINUTES.
A keystone of justice is innocent until proven guilty. He has been arrested and charged and justice will follow based on a sober analysis of the evidence, rather than trial by social media.

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Re: Violence in the US after killing by police.

#5 Post by Tom Bombadil » Sun May 31, 2020 12:16 pm

That's part of the issue. If recent history shows much, its that justice might not follow. That is the crux of the issue. Police officers in recent memory have been acquitted of killing black men. There is no faith in the justice system which is what evokes these reactions. If there was faith in the justice system, this likely would not be happening.

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Re: Violence in the US after killing by police.

#6 Post by flash2015 » Sun May 31, 2020 1:40 pm

Octavious wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 12:05 pm
Tom Bombadil wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 11:58 am
Yank cops MURDER a Yank BY CRUSHING HIS NECK FOR 7 MINUTES.
A keystone of justice is innocent until proven guilty. He has been arrested and charged and justice will follow based on a sober analysis of the evidence, rather than trial by social media.
Why did you assume that Floyd was resisting arrest (i.e. he deserved it)?

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Re: Violence in the US after killing by police.

#7 Post by Octavious » Sun May 31, 2020 2:08 pm

flash2015 wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 1:40 pm
Why did you assume that Floyd was resisting arrest (i.e. he deserved it)?
For what bizarre reason do you equate resisting arrest with deserving death?

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Re: Violence in the US after killing by police.

#8 Post by flash2015 » Sun May 31, 2020 2:13 pm

Octavious wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 2:08 pm
flash2015 wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 1:40 pm
Why did you assume that Floyd was resisting arrest (i.e. he deserved it)?
For what bizarre reason do you equate resisting arrest with deserving death?
You complained about people in social media prejudging the situation...after first prejudging the situation yourself. Why did you even suggest that he was resisting arrest then?

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Re: Violence in the US after killing by police.

#9 Post by Octavious » Sun May 31, 2020 2:28 pm

The news reports that stated he was resisting arrest

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Re: Violence in the US after killing by police.

#10 Post by flash2015 » Sun May 31, 2020 2:38 pm

I don't know which news report you saw. In the US at least I haven't seen anyone claiming that he resisted arrest and that is including many conservative news sources.

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Re: Violence in the US after killing by police.

#11 Post by Octavious » Sun May 31, 2020 2:43 pm

From the BBC

What happened in the arrest?

Officers suspected Mr Floyd had used a counterfeit $20 (£16) note and were attempting to put him in a police vehicle when he dropped to the ground, telling them he was claustrophobic.

According to police, he physically resisted officers and was handcuffed.

Video of the incident does not show how the confrontation started, but a white officer can be seen with his knee on Mr Floyd's neck, pinning him down.

Mr Floyd can be heard saying "please, I can't breathe" and "don't kill me".

A former local nightclub owner has said Mr Chauvin and Mr Floyd both worked as bouncers at her venue in south Minneapolis up until last year, though it is unclear if they knew one another.

The full report by the county medical examiner has not been released, but the complaint states that the post-mortem examination did not find evidence of "traumatic asphyxia or strangulation".

The medical examiner noted Mr Floyd had underlying heart conditions and the combination of these, "potential intoxicants in his system" and being restrained by the officers "likely contributed to his death".

The report says Mr Chauvin had his knee on Mr Floyd's neck for eight minutes and 46 seconds - almost three minutes of which was after Mr Floyd became non-responsive.

Nearly two minutes before he removed his knee the other officers checked Mr Floyd's right wrist for a pulse and were unable to find one. He was taken to the Hennepin County Medical Center in an ambulance and pronounced dead around an hour later.

The Minnesota police handbook states that officers trained on how to compress a detainee's neck without applying direct pressure to the airway can use a knee under its use-of-force policy. This is regarded as a non-deadly-force option.

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Re: Violence in the US after killing by police.

#12 Post by flash2015 » Sun May 31, 2020 2:54 pm

From the Murdoch press in NY, not ones to usually go against the police narrative:

https://nypost.com/2020/05/27/video-doe ... ng-arrest/

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Re: Violence in the US after killing by police.

#13 Post by Octavious » Sun May 31, 2020 3:08 pm

Interesting stuff. But it is simply more reason to wait for the investigation and the courts to do their work. There are various questions that require answers.

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Re: Violence in the US after killing by police.

#14 Post by orathaic » Sun May 31, 2020 3:11 pm

Octavious wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 12:05 pm
Tom Bombadil wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 11:58 am
Yank cops MURDER a Yank BY CRUSHING HIS NECK FOR 7 MINUTES.
A keystone of justice is innocent until proven guilty. He has been arrested and charged and justice will follow based on a sober analysis of the evidence, rather than trial by social media.
A keystone of justice is that it is deemed fair. Trevor Noah made a very good video about it recently, I'll dig it up*.

Odd that you are extending the 'innocent until proven guilty' only to the murderer in this case, but not the black man.

If he was innocent until proven guilty, why is he dead?

The only bit of sympathy I have for the police is that they are trained to treat everyone as potentially armed. And they have to be, because the US lack of gun control means everyone is potentially armed. I am once again glad I do not live there.

*Trevor Noah on the broken social contract: https://youtu.be/v4amCfVbA_c
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Re: Violence in the US after killing by police.

#15 Post by flash2015 » Sun May 31, 2020 3:20 pm

The issue is, Octavious, that in the past police appear to get off with few consequences. If they do get sacked for bad behaviour they often find new jobs in other jurisdictions (John Oliver did a story on this a couple of years ago). If they do get charged few (if any) get convicted. So people are worried that the same will happen again.

This may be hard to understand as it is a problem quite unique to the US. I don't know of similar issues of police brutality in Australia or the UK.

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Re: Violence in the US after killing by police.

#16 Post by flash2015 » Sun May 31, 2020 3:26 pm

Especially in this case, the main perp here, Derek Chauvin has a history of brutality. How many times did he (and others like him) get away with it because there wasn't video evidence?

This case unfortunately is going to remove Klobuchar from the veepstakes (she was a prosecutor at the time of a couple of Chauvin's other incidents).

Two of the other leading VP candidates, Kamala Harris and Val Dennings, also come from law enforcement...so this could reduce Biden's options even more.

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Re: Violence in the US after killing by police.

#17 Post by Octavious » Sun May 31, 2020 4:09 pm

orathaic wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 3:11 pm
If he was innocent until proven guilty, why is he dead?
What nonsensical comment is this? Death is not the punishment for any crime he was suspected of committing. Whether he is innocent or not not is irrelevant to why he is dead.

What we need to establish is why he died, which is not at all clear. Initial medical reports suggest he didn't die of strangulation, so it's important for that process to be completed and the cause of death identified.

We then have to establish whether the police officers acted inappropriately. The most shocking thing from the video on the media was the officer's knee on the man's neck, but apparently this is a recognised practice in the US police force. So the question is whether the action was appropriate for the situation, and whether the action was correctly carried out.

If the action was unlawful and caused the death then the officer is guilty of a serious crime (what that crime is I'm not sure about, as US definitions of murder et al are somewhat different from British definitions). If the action was carried out lawfully and it caused his death then serious questions must be asked of police procedure. It is also possible that the action was carried out lawfully and didn't cause the death, which is the worst case scenario as justice will be seen as a cover up.

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Re: Violence in the US after killing by police.

#18 Post by Randomizer » Sun May 31, 2020 4:46 pm

The initial charges include several statements irrelevant to the charges, but are favorable to getting Chauvin off on murder. So far it looks like the police will get their usual not guilty. The fact Chauvin didn't remove his knee long after Floyd was no longer moving or had a measurable pulse is still the prime reason for a murder charge.

No mention if Floyd's car matched the description in the 911 call.

Meanwhile the police are shooting the press across the country.

https://news.yahoo.com/police-across-co ... 10042.html

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Re: Violence in the US after killing by police.

#19 Post by flash2015 » Sun May 31, 2020 5:05 pm

I think Cuomo made a good observation today. We should mandate that these sort of investigations need to done by independent prosecutors (e.g. someone chosen by the state attorney general).

The problem with local prosecutors doing it is they know that they risk police blowback if they choose to proceed with prosecution...thus leading them not to proceed with charges in most situations.

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Re: Violence in the US after killing by police.

#20 Post by orathaic » Sun May 31, 2020 6:23 pm

Focusing on the spark, rather than the spilt fuel blinds some people to the reason this is happening.

See also "Christian Cooper, the black man who recorded a disturbing confrontation with a white woman in New York City’s Central Park, said he accepts her apology but pointed out that the incident is part of a much deeper problem of racism in the United States that must be addressed. "

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