Incel charged with Terrorism

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Octavious
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Re: Incel charged with Terrorism

#2 Post by Octavious » Tue May 19, 2020 7:17 pm

Seems a tad odd to me. Surely a basic foundation stone of terrorism is a shared political goal. Whether that's an independence movement, or to stop a war, or bring down a some powerful entity. Is there such a thing for angry incels? Is there even an incel minded organisation that vaguely resembles a terrorist group? And if there is, what evidence is there that this person was part of it?

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Re: Incel charged with Terrorism

#3 Post by Jamiet99uk » Tue May 19, 2020 10:22 pm

Well, Incels do have a shared goal, to some degree. They want to hurt the people who they hold to blame for the fact they can't get laid.
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Re: Incel charged with Terrorism

#4 Post by orathaic » Wed May 20, 2020 12:10 am

What Jamie said.

They share and promote this violence on various online forums, they celebrate those murders as martyrs for their twisted cause. So yeah, being a group of lone gunmen rather than the ISIS of terrorist group doesn't really make not terrorists. Just as we label a lone man of middle eastern descent a terrorist when we see him taking out as many people as he can...

This is what is the toxic part of toxic masculinity. They have a belief system, and it stems from western ideals of what a man is supposed to be. It twists these ideals, sure. Just as many would say Islam is a religion of peace which is twisted by terrorists killing in its name.

I don't think any of this is controversial. It is just a surprise to see authorities label him a terrorist, when he isn't brown or foreign...

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Re: Incel charged with Terrorism

#5 Post by Randomizer » Wed May 20, 2020 1:00 am

Well it is Canada and not the US where white domestic terrorists are rarely charged as terrorists.

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Re: Incel charged with Terrorism

#6 Post by Octavious » Wed May 20, 2020 12:59 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 10:22 pm
Well, Incels do have a shared goal, to some degree. They want to hurt the people who they hold to blame for the fact they can't get laid.
Pretty much all murderers want to hurt people they blame for some hardship, be it real or imagined. That does not make it terrorism, otherwise you'd have to define a large chunk of the prison population as terrorists and the word loses all useful meaning.

Terrorists must have a political aim in order to be classed as terrorists. That was just a personal act of anger for an unclear motivation. Maybe the massage parlour refused to give him the services he wanted and he flipped.

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Re: Incel charged with Terrorism

#7 Post by orathaic » Wed May 20, 2020 2:52 pm

Octavious, please define politics for us.
EDIT: for example is the feminism movement 'political'?

(nb see also: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10. ... ode=uter20)
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Re: Incel charged with Terrorism

#8 Post by Octavious » Wed May 20, 2020 9:48 pm

Are you equating the incels to the feminist movement, Ora?

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Re: Incel charged with Terrorism

#9 Post by Jamiet99uk » Wed May 20, 2020 11:16 pm

Well, Octavious, if people who clearly identified as feminists, and part of a feminist movement, committed a series of attacks on men they considered to promote rape culture, or similar, and were then arrested on suspicion of terrorism.... would you stand up and say "oh, that isn't terrorism!"
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Re: Incel charged with Terrorism

#10 Post by Octavious » Thu May 21, 2020 4:54 am

Just to be clear. You're saying that you want to define the Suffragettes as a terrorist organisation?

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Re: Incel charged with Terrorism

#11 Post by orathaic » Thu May 21, 2020 7:33 am

Glad to see you continue to ignore my question.

And no, the suffragettes won. That makes them freedom fighters!

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Re: Incel charged with Terrorism

#12 Post by Octavious » Thu May 21, 2020 10:12 am

Not ignoring, just trying to ensure that I understand you and Jamie's thinking before I answer. You believe it is desirable and correct to label the Suffragettes as a terrorist organisation?

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Re: Incel charged with Terrorism

#13 Post by orathaic » Thu May 21, 2020 7:18 pm

I know I was being entirely tongue in cheek calling them freedom fighters. But yes, if you believe that there is a problem with government over-reach, and that people's rights are being affected by the 'terrorism' label, the have I got a story to tell you about the FBI infiltrating the civil rights movement...

I'm not sure what your issue with labeling incels as terrorists is; do you think the suffragettes were fighting oppression and took what they demanded rather than waiting politely for it to be handed to them? I'm not sure that is a bad thing. Universal franchise was a worthy goal. It didn't end the need for feminism, but it did facilitate the use of words instead of violence. When every woman (including the black women and poor women who are often left out of political discussions) gets to have a voice, then you can claim political violence is no longer acceptable. Until they it is much easier to justify.

And I am usually very clear that violence can only be justified on grounds of self defence (and defence of others). So I guess to be consistent I have to put repression of women's right to vote into a category of 'gender based political violence' - against which they were defending. Is that a fair way of reasoning? (just thinking through, happy for constructive feedback).

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Re: Incel charged with Terrorism

#14 Post by Octavious » Fri May 22, 2020 9:36 am

orathaic wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 7:18 pm
But yes, if you believe that there is a problem with government over-reach, and that people's rights are being affected by the 'terrorism' label, the have I got a story to tell you about the FBI infiltrating the civil rights movement...

I'm not sure what your issue with labeling incels as terrorists is
I'll wait for Jamie's view on the Suffragettes before giving my proper response, but a quick aside on this point.

Is that what yo think my motivation is? That it's some wider issue on government over-reach and people's rights? I guess I should be flattered. But no, my issue is far more basic than that. I simply do not believe that the definition of terrorism fits the crime, and I don't like words being misused.

I suspect that this sort of thing is a lot more common than you might think. There are plenty of conservatives of a certain generation who had very much a live and let live philosophy, and whose major issue with the gay rights movement was the change in use of the word gay from happy to homosexual. We don't like linguistic mission creep because it feels like someone is trying to con us. It is seen as pretty much inevitable, for example, that at some point in the near future the left will decide to declare that the word BAME is no longer politically correct and conservatives who don't bother keeping track of the latest woke fashions will be accused of racism for using it.

In terms of this incel chap, he appears to be a cold blooded murderer so lock him up for a long time. If he had a few mates on the net or otherwise egging him on lock them up too for incitement. Whether he's labeled a terrorist or not shouldn't make much difference to what happens to him. But he's not a terrorist because that's not what the word means

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Re: Incel charged with Terrorism

#15 Post by Jamiet99uk » Fri May 22, 2020 3:46 pm

I did not describe the Suffragettes, so Octavious's question is somewhat disingenuous.

For what it is worth, the Suffragettes were widely described as terrorists by the establishment of the day. The Octavious of 100 years ago may well have defined them as such.

This is descending into a nit-picking debate about semantics.

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Re: Incel charged with Terrorism

#16 Post by Octavious » Fri May 22, 2020 3:50 pm

I'm less interested in the Octavious of 100 years ago, fine fellow though he no doubt is/was, than I am in your view. Do you believe it is desirable and correct to describe the Suffragettes as terrorists?

It is not a trick question, nor do I believe it to be particularly difficult to answer.

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Re: Incel charged with Terrorism

#17 Post by Jamiet99uk » Fri May 22, 2020 3:53 pm

Desirable to whom?

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Re: Incel charged with Terrorism

#18 Post by Octavious » Fri May 22, 2020 4:11 pm

You. If you want further guidance, let's say desirable to you in the sense that it better resembles a world working as you believe it should.

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Re: Incel charged with Terrorism

#19 Post by Jamiet99uk » Fri May 22, 2020 5:47 pm

Well then since "terrorist" is a very emotive word, then desirable, no. But correct? Borderline. I'd err on the side of "incorrect" as well. It depends what your precise definition is. I would say that terrorism involves killing or maiming people, or threatening to do so to the extent that people seriously fear you are going to do so (i.e. they are "terrorised" by you), in pursuit of some sort of political or politicised aim.

The suffragettes certainly had a clear aim - the extension of the franchise to women. Did they kill people or threaten to do so? I associate them more with civil disobedience and property damage. Without going away and researching, I don't recall the suffragettes going around killing people? Did they do that?

By comparison the news story that started this thread involved an incel killing one person - and he was trying to kill multiple people. He left another person badly wounded.
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Re: Incel charged with Terrorism

#20 Post by orathaic » Fri May 22, 2020 7:01 pm

Octavious wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 9:36 am
orathaic wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 7:18 pm
But yes, if you believe that there is a problem with government over-reach, and that people's rights are being affected by the 'terrorism' label, the have I got a story to tell you about the FBI infiltrating the civil rights movement...

I'm not sure what your issue with labeling incels as terrorists is
I'll wait for Jamie's view on the Suffragettes before giving my proper response, but a quick aside on this point.

Is that what yo think my motivation is? That it's some wider issue on government over-reach and people's rights? I guess I should be flattered. But no, my issue is far more basic than that. I simply do not believe that the definition of terrorism fits the crime, and I don't like words being misused.

Do I think that is your motivation? No, that is why I asked, I think that would be a reason to question the state on it's actions.

I suspect that this sort of thing is a lot more common than you might think. There are plenty of conservatives of a certain generation who had very much a live and let live philosophy, and whose major issue with the gay rights movement was the change in use of the word gay from happy to homosexual. We don't like linguistic mission creep because it feels like someone is trying to con us. It is seen as pretty much inevitable, for example, that at some point in the near future the left will decide to declare that the word BAME is no longer politically correct and conservatives who don't bother keeping track of the latest woke fashions will be accused of racism for using it.

Really? This is seriously it? Just to point out, language is fluid, it keeps changing as new words become fashionable and older ones drop out of us. This isn't some Liberal plot, it is just the nature of culture.

The opposite is actually an issue, this kind of conservatism (of language and meaning) is used to justify the status quo (whatever that was when you were growing up) and while I may take issue with the mission creep you describe when it comes to governments and state institutions expanding their reach, when it comes to oppressed groups demanding their rights, particularly to be treated with respect... Yeah that is the kind of change wmi can get on board with.

And sometimes that will mean not using words which have become used as slurs (whether that is a new use, or the status quo was to use that words to marginalise a particular group).

In terms of this incel chap, he appears to be a cold blooded murderer so lock him up for a long time. If he had a few mates on the net or otherwise egging him on lock them up too for incitement. Whether he's labeled a terrorist or not shouldn't make much difference to what happens to him. But he's not a terrorist because that's not what the word means
You haven't told me yet whether you think incels and/or feminists fit your definition of 'political' and why.

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