Coup d'État in the UK

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peterlund
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Coup d'État in the UK

#1 Post by peterlund » Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:19 pm

Boris closes down the parliament in order to remove the opposition to his silly ideas. What will Boris dictate next? Democracy in the UK seems to be under fire...

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Re: Coup d'État in the UK

#2 Post by Randomizer » Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:42 am

Boy Trump's jealous that he can't do that with Congress. The best that he can do is get Do Nothing Mitch McConnell to refuse to hold votes on bills.

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Re: Coup d'État in the UK

#3 Post by Octavious » Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:28 am

Not really.

If Brexit didn't exist then what you'd expect to see is exactly what's happening. Parliament being suspended by the new prime minister in preparation for a Queen's speech. It would, in normal circumstances, be extremely unusual if it didn't happen, and it would likely have happened at exactly the same time as it's traditional to lump it in with conference season when convenient to do so.

The controversy is purely because many of those who are in favour of Remain believe, quite rightly, that the proper way to conduct business in the current circumstances would be to wait until after the Brexit deadline.

So what has suspending Parliament actually changed? There are 4 or 5 fewer days for Parliament to discuss Brexit than there otherwise would have been. There remain several days before Parliament is suspended and a couple of weeks after to act as they wish.

The big fear of Remainers in the summer was that the Government would suspend Parliament until after Brexit and deny any attempt of Parliament to exert influence. This would have been an outrage, but this hasn't happened. What we are instead seeing are all the arguments prepared for this hypothetical outrage being rolled out for this far less aggressive move, which is making everything seem a bit out of proportion.
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Re: Coup d'État in the UK

#4 Post by Octavious » Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:30 am

It is believed by various commentators, and myself, that the primary motivation behind this is to force the opposition to push for an election.

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Re: Coup d'État in the UK

#5 Post by orathaic » Sat Aug 31, 2019 1:32 pm

I think the best take was from some EU official, saying this was undemocratic, and thus in violation of EU treaties (member states must be democratic). What are the going to do? Suspend the UK's membership?

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Re: Coup d'État in the UK

#6 Post by Octavious » Sun Sep 01, 2019 9:36 am

orathaic wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 1:32 pm
I think the best take was from some EU official, saying this was undemocratic, and thus in violation of EU treaties (member states must be democratic). What are the going to do? Suspend the UK's membership?
There's nothing undemocratic about proroguing Parliament in preparation for a Queen's speech. That is standard practice in the function of UK democracy. If it had been done to prevent Parliament from having the opportunity to act prior to Brexit it would have been unforgivable, but it hasn't. Parliament has time to act, and will act, although some of the more off piste options for Remainers have become rather trickier to pull off.

The action has challenged in the courts and the courts don't seem particularly interested. This EU official is talking bollocks.
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Re: Coup d'État in the UK

#7 Post by MPC » Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:00 pm

There will be no no-deal Brexit.

First everybody will agree a figue leaf deal to hide some rivate parts and avoid a Lehman Brother moment. Almost certain.

But failing that, a symbolic short term no deal brexit will be followed by a flurry of technical and sectorial deals away from the public eyes. The economy will scream for them. In those deals the power of the EU will be obvious. 450 millions against 60 millions. The voice of the UK will be far more residual. But it will be hidden in tons of technical issues. Brexiters will proudly show that the country has taken back control. Passports will be blue again and no mention of the EU. Queues will be back in Dover. Ironically the UK will be politically and economically weaker. You do not believe me? See how China is humiliating the UK in general and regarding HK in particular. The chinese politburo knows a lot about raw power. The UK will no more punch above its weight. No, Ireland will as we have seen...

Politics is all about perceptions. One day the public will wake up but this crop of charlatans, buffons and blonde clowns will have passed. The crowds cheering the flag also.

The prorogation? A political gimmick for corrupted politicians. Nothing more nothing less and nothing new under the sun.
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Re: Coup d'État in the UK

#8 Post by Octavious » Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:52 pm

MPC wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:00 pm
See how China is humiliating the UK in general and regarding HK in particular
How is China humiliating the UK? The entire point of the Hong Kong handover was that it would cease to be a problem for us (in the sense that keeping it British would cause a permanent argument with a military that would outnumber anything we could deliver locally by 100 to 1) and start being a problem for China (in the sense that a city full of millions of independent thinking freedom loving Chinese would be unleashed amongst those who know nothing but Communism). It seems to be working beautifully.

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Re: Coup d'État in the UK

#9 Post by MPC » Sun Sep 01, 2019 5:41 pm

Sorry to say but the UK did not want to give HK back. Please refer to Thatcher almost falling off the stairs after the polituro instructed her to give it back. As for how it will develop, you seem to believe in the constant progress of Democracy. I do not. I remember Tienamen.

As for the continuous UK bashing in China please refer to the speach of the Chinese ambassador in London recently. Very instructive. Very. And not that subtle. Chinese have a long memory. The opium war is not fogotten or forgiven or the unequal treaties.

But if you are not convinced let's talk about the factual British and Spanish co-sovereignty on Gilbratar. Plesee you do not know about it either?

Or the future trade embargo by Mercosul countries because of the Falklans island / Malvinas. Maybe you do not know about it but unfortunately you will.

Outside the EU the UK is not free from chains. No, it is isolated. And the world is now like diplomacy in 1900. Hobbsian.

So economically the UK will be back in the EU. With no voice and with a flurry of technical, narrow treaties that nobody will know about it with obscure names.Politically and diplomatically the damage is done. Forever. It is too painful to watch. I am so sorry for the UK. British people deserved better.
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Re: Coup d'État in the UK

#10 Post by orathaic » Sun Sep 01, 2019 11:06 pm

Octavious wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 9:36 am
orathaic wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 1:32 pm
I think the best take was from some EU official, saying this was undemocratic, and thus in violation of EU treaties (member states must be democratic). What are the going to do? Suspend the UK's membership?
There's nothing undemocratic about proroguing Parliament in preparation for a Queen's speech. That is standard practice in the function of UK democracy. If it had been done to prevent Parliament from having the opportunity to act prior to Brexit it would have been unforgivable, but it hasn't. Parliament has time to act, and will act, although some of the more off piste options for Remainers have become rather trickier to pull off.

The action has challenged in the courts and the courts don't seem particularly interested. This EU official is talking bollocks.
It really depends and the when's then doesn't it? Like when is the last EU council meeting going to be held, who will sit in the UK's seat as head of government? (assuming the opposition can't oust Johnson this week and install a caretaker government). What will the timings look like if there is going to be a general election?

I suspect Johnson wants to deliver a brexit and then call an election to 'prove' he's in charge. We shall see how that plays out for him...

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Re: Coup d'État in the UK

#11 Post by orathaic » Sun Sep 01, 2019 11:17 pm

Tory minister Michael Gove has refused to say whether the government would abide by legislation designed to stop the UK leaving the EU without a deal.


The next argument will be, 'sure it is perfectly legal for the PM to not go to the Queen and request royal assent... So Gove is just implying they will ignore parliament if it suits them... But that isn' t undemocratic.'

Good luck!

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Re: Coup d'État in the UK

#12 Post by brainbomb » Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:54 pm

if the brexit shit is so unpopular with the people is there some reason why they dont just put it on a ballot initiative to cancel the plan?

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Re: Coup d'État in the UK

#13 Post by brainbomb » Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:55 pm

like if America makes a law that its okay to eat dogs and cats. And its massively unpopular. theyll just rescind the proposal and replace it with a bill saying nah we aint eating no damn dogs

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Re: Coup d'État in the UK

#14 Post by brainbomb » Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:56 pm

maybe I should ask, what % of the population actually is happy about leaving the EU?

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Re: Coup d'État in the UK

#15 Post by Octavious » Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:50 pm

It's pretty close. The polls suggest Remain has a lead of a few percent, which is pretty much what the polls were saying in the months prior to the first referendum. If a second referendum was held it's not at all clear who would win, but it's highly likely that they won't win by much.

If there was an election it's again not certain who would win, but the odds seem in favour of Brexit supporting parties as Remain is hideously split between Labour and the Lib Dems.

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Re: Coup d'État in the UK

#16 Post by Octavious » Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:59 pm

Out of curiosity, brainbomb, what gave you the impression it was so unpopular with the people? If there is a news outlet you're using that's giving that impression I suggest you stop using it.
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Re: Coup d'État in the UK

#17 Post by orathaic » Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:15 pm

Unpopular with some people, many Labour MPs want an orderly brexit. Lib Dems are no longer the third party by number of MPs, but should easily pick up a lot of seats in an upcoming election as they continue their solid remain position.

SNP position is pretty clear, Labour has many supporters to lose if the support remaining. But there are no ballot initiatives in the UK AFAIK, at least not as they exist in the US.

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Re: Coup d'État in the UK

#18 Post by orathaic » Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:17 pm

You need 100,000 people for an issue to be debated in Parliament, not sure this ever makes new legislation... But Brexit is already being debated, so I'm not sure how much value that has. Likewise, a European Citizen's Initiative requires some millions and gets a discussion in the European Parliament at most...

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Re: Coup d'État in the UK

#19 Post by Octavious » Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:04 pm

Well, one thing that the last few days have proven beyond doubt is that the claim that there was a coup and that Parliament had been closed down was utter bollocks. What's a little worrying is how quickly people were to believe it. There's a lesson to be learned here, methinks.
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Re: Coup d'État in the UK

#20 Post by orathaic » Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:25 pm

"Attempted Coup" would have been more accurate, followed by Parliament rebel. Alliance taking back control from Johnson.

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