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@orathaic, as part of the inquest did they come to understand **why** all the deaths occurred? I assume that it largely came down to lack of resources and no oversight (religious institutions often get a pass because of their special status)?

Some people get incensed with abortions made for economic reasons ("how dare these women think of money!!"). But you just can't leave it out of the equation. If you are going to force women to give birth then an important part of the discussion is how we would fund it. We can't just wave it away and say "God provides" because as it has been shown that it is not a given.

Ben Shapiro is a horrible person. He's just absolutely vile.

flash2015 wrote: ↑

Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:22 pm

@orathaic, as part of the inquest did they come to understand **why** all the deaths occurred? I assume that it largely came down to lack of resources and no oversight (religious institutions often get a pass because of their special status)?

<snip>

The investigation is ongoing, see: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bon_Sec ... _Baby_Home

The article has some good links in the references.

But AFAIK, the religious order got state funding for these children (possibly not enough) and many died from malnutrition, though also other causes of death are listed (possibly diseases which would not have been fatal in a well nourished child). The death rate was very high.

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑

Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:20 pm

Ben Shapiro is a horrible person. He's just absolutely vile.

Whoa, stop talking so much sense, you're weirding me out. Lol.

The Catholic Church, like most if not all churches, is an evil institution which has done untold harm to many people.

Whew. Had me worried for a sec.
Though I don't disagree with the sentiment, just the length of it. Like any institution with access to considerable power over society for a long length of time, the Catholic Church has wrought great good and great evil. It is currently badly in need of reform because it has failed to address, and appears systemically incapable of addressing, considerable atrocities perpetrated against children.
I wouldn't be so quick to throw the entirety of the Catholic Church or religious organizations generally under the bus though. They are the foremost providers of relief to the poor and charity in the Western world, and they are often the bedrock of constructive community life.
That said, from what I know (and have learned in this thread) about the actions taken at Bon Secours and by pedophile priests, with the Church leadership looking the other way, there is clearly a deep rot and corruption within the Church that must be purged.

Agree with a lot of that Carl. The trial of Cardinal Pell in Australia (convicted, conviction suppressed from publication whilst appeal lodged, eventually suppression order overturned, public finally get to know.. a never ending saga of expensive lawyers representing Pell & Church) and more instructively, the lengths the Catholic Church went to in defending him, the resources used in that defense compared to the Catholic Church's treatment of victims of abuse & allocation of resources to compensate victims of abuse, is damnable inditement of the systemic problems within the Catholic Church

In defence of the church, they are not the only organisation which has been used by paedophiles to abuse children, (in Ireland alone i know séin ireland and scouting ireland both had issues). However the responce of the church authorities was an abuse of power.

When they (several bishops) decided to cover up these crimes, move priests from one diocese to another (allowing them abuse more children), while claiming that the priest didn't need to do any atonement greater than seeking forgiveness from God... They were acting to protect the power of the institutions. Now the only powerful institutions which exist are those which use their power the protect themselves. But most countries have established some form of checks and balanced on the power of their state.

And the Catholic Church has for decades fought state authority attempting to curb their power. I suspect they have used diplomatic immunity of Vatican City officials to circumvent the law in various places, Cardinal Pell being a prime example of taking years to actually convict - at which point the suppression of the publication of his crimes makes perfect sense, the Church continues to try to protect its own reputation. And if you are partof the church, perhaps you can see all the good they do in your life and community, so want to see others benefit from these goods, and would therefore support protect the churches reputation...

So I did start this with 'in defence' of the church. The community role and charitable works can't be ignored. But I am rather critical, the Vatican and church authorities don't fund charitable works, those are funded by local communities. Largely that means local communities are being charitable through the church to help their neighbours. And that is great, but it doesn't require a global institution controlling and protecting its reputation...

In Ireland I know the influence of the church has declined in recent years, and along with that the communities centered around rural churches have moved more towards sports (specifically the Gaelic Games, GAA which is well established across the country). So I am more than happy to assume the community element will easily find a substitute without the church (even without replacing it with another religion).

So, my real defence of the church is merely, all powerful institutions act to protect their own power. And often at the expense of their original stated mission.

(as an aside, in responce to the 'charitable works' angle, I know that on Kiva - an online micro lending platform - the atheists and christians are competing to lend the most money...)

orathaic wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:15 am

So I did start this with 'in defence' of the church. The community role and charitable works can't be ignored. But I am rather critical, the Vatican and church authorities don't fund charitable works, those are funded by local communities. Largely that means local communities are being charitable through the church to help their neighbours. And that is great, but it doesn't require a global institution controlling and protecting its reputation...

You don't even need a local church.

My pub (a rock/metal/biker bar) has a fundraising team of which I am a member. It consists of both staff and customers, the vast majority of whom are non-religious. This year so far we have raised over £8,000 for local charities, and there's plenty more in the pipeline.

Damn right Jamiet99uk, well done, that's great collective work. Similarly, Gods, Deities or religions​ are not required to develop​ a moral & ethical code.

I will return to this later, I'd like to discuss the behaviour of those individuals who first set themselves up as spokespersons for Gods. What motivated them, etc.

Umm there is no God check your medications or go get some. Any male who thinks they have a say in this is just a male. Sorry guys you don't get to choose.

Smokey Gem wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:26 am

Umm there is no God check your medications or go get some. Any male who thinks they have a say in this is just a male. Sorry guys you don't get to choose.

Next you will tell me mathematics doesn't exist.

It is a rather pointless argument. Because we can use maths whether it exists or not in order to solve problems.

The question become, is God useful. And many people continue to find it a very useful idea.

I don't know what "God" means.

flash2015 wrote: ↑

Fri May 31, 2019 2:25 am

His? I thought it was "SHE who must be obeyed"?

Sorry, no. That would be my wife. It says so on our Netflix ID’s

She who must be obeyed
Parasite #1
Parasite #2
Parasite #3

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:26 am

orathaic wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:15 am

... Largely that means local communities are being charitable through the church to help their neighbours. And that is great, but it doesn't require a global institution controlling and protecting its reputation...

You don't even need a local church.

My pub (a rock/metal/biker bar) has a fund raising team .... the vast majority of whom are non-religious. This year so far we have raised over £8,000 for local charities, and there's plenty more in the pipeline.

Cheers! Here’s to good people doing good in the world!

Yet more evidence that anti-abortion laws are fucked up and more about controlling women than "saving" foetuses:

https://www.businessinsider.com/us-anti ... &r=US&IR=T

@ Orathaic. The conviction of Cardinal Pell was not suppressed by the Court to protect the reputation of the Catholic Church. It was suppressed because of his intention to appeal the conviction and (I think) there was another, probably linked matter before the Court. I think his lawyers argued to the Court that if Cardinal Pell's conviction became public knowledge, it might (unfairly) influence the other matter before the Court. When the other matter before the Court was dropped then media organisations successfully sought to have the suppression order revoked.