Vaccines

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Fluminator
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Vaccines

#1 Post by Fluminator » Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:58 pm

It's well established vaccines don't cause autism. I'm assuming we all know how they work and they seem to have worked great in history. I'm vaccinated as well, and I'm very rarely sick (and relatively normal) probably in part because of the vaccines.

However, I am a little concerned with the vaccine industry as a whole, and how much power they have. If you even question any of their current, more modern practices, you're ridiculed and lumped with the "vaccine causes autism" camp.
Like any other industry, it's prone to corruption, and vaccines make big pharma a ton of money now.
They are the top lobbying industry in the United States by quite a bit. The practices for submitting new vaccines to the population are getting much more lax yet simultaneously protected (with very little study for long term side effects compared to past vaccines), yet the government is still pushing for people to go through with almost ALL of them as fast as possible. The vaccine industries are protected from ever being sued if the vaccine causes negative damage which makes some sense but also dangerous.

Looking at past successes of vaccines is great and all, but I'm more concerned about the present and future. No they don't cause autism, but wouldn't it be good to take a step back, and make sure the companies are doing everything they can to ensure other long term side effects don't pop up due to sloppily designed vaccines. There are loads of anecdotal stories of some of the new vaccines from people I trust and I'm staring to get a little nervous ngl.

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Re: Vaccines

#2 Post by Randomizer » Thu Mar 07, 2019 7:08 pm

You have to remember that vaccines aren't a big money maker for the companies so they aren't spending more for testing than they need. They probably spend more in defending that they aren't causing significant harm. Sure they have more consumers with mandatory vaccination, but the cost per dose is less than they can get for cancer or other diseases.

Of course all drug testing had become worse until they were required to release all studies from testing rather than just submit three positive ones under the old rules. You have to remember that most testing is for a short term, six weeks is common, and long term is mostly from doctor reports after approval. The rush to get to market means ten years after use isn't going to happen anymore.

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Re: Vaccines

#3 Post by flash2015 » Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:55 pm

Fluminator wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:58 pm
It's well established vaccines don't cause autism. I'm assuming we all know how they work and they seem to have worked great in history. I'm vaccinated as well, and I'm very rarely sick (and relatively normal) probably in part because of the vaccines.

However, I am a little concerned with the vaccine industry as a whole, and how much power they have. If you even question any of their current, more modern practices, you're ridiculed and lumped with the "vaccine causes autism" camp.
Like any other industry, it's prone to corruption, and vaccines make big pharma a ton of money now.
They are the top lobbying industry in the United States by quite a bit. The practices for submitting new vaccines to the population are getting much more lax yet simultaneously protected (with very little study for long term side effects compared to past vaccines), yet the government is still pushing for people to go through with almost ALL of them as fast as possible. The vaccine industries are protected from ever being sued if the vaccine causes negative damage which makes some sense but also dangerous.

Looking at past successes of vaccines is great and all, but I'm more concerned about the present and future. No they don't cause autism, but wouldn't it be good to take a step back, and make sure the companies are doing everything they can to ensure other long term side effects don't pop up due to sloppily designed vaccines. There are loads of anecdotal stories of some of the new vaccines from people I trust and I'm staring to get a little nervous ngl.
I think a big problem is that many people treat "vaccines" as one...where efficacy and side effects may be very different. I could see "XX vaccine is bad" as a valid argument but it is hard for me to take "All vaccines are bad" or a vague general distrust of vaccines seriously. We have way, way too much evidence of the general usefulness of vaccines and how they have greatly improved lives in the last century.

Do you perhaps have specific vaccines that you are concerned with? Let's discuss those specific concerns.

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Re: Vaccines

#4 Post by orathaic » Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:14 am

Your thread has the wrong title, this isn't about vaccines specifically. You have a problem with corporate practice in the pharma industry and with govt regulations (or lack thereof)

You could also talk about lobbying, and how corporations affect those regulations.
You don't seem to be concerned about public trust in vaccines, and how they have been so successful (nobody knows a child who died from measles...) that vaccination rates have dropped (thousands of measles cases across Europe and the US).

How we make decisions is the core of it. How capitalism and profit motives shouldn't be trusted completely. Even a libertarian would say there is a problem (ie you should be able to sue for damages...) but the problem is how profit makers (the capitalists) exert undue influence over decision making (politicians).

Using the specific example of vaccines is fine. But addressing concerns over each and every specific example means many small fights (which are hard to win) and does nothing to tackle the underlying cause.

If you focus on the topic as on of decision making, you can look at how anti-vaccer communities make decisions, how politicians make decisions, how doctors collectively advise the public, and how corporations 'decide' to maximise their profits. I suspect there are problems with all areas there.

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Re: Vaccines

#5 Post by flash2015 » Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:29 pm

orathaic wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:14 am
Your thread has the wrong title, this isn't about vaccines specifically. You have a problem with corporate practice in the pharma industry and with govt regulations (or lack thereof)

You could also talk about lobbying, and how corporations affect those regulations.
You don't seem to be concerned about public trust in vaccines, and how they have been so successful (nobody knows a child who died from measles...) that vaccination rates have dropped (thousands of measles cases across Europe and the US).

How we make decisions is the core of it. How capitalism and profit motives shouldn't be trusted completely. Even a libertarian would say there is a problem (ie you should be able to sue for damages...) but the problem is how profit makers (the capitalists) exert undue influence over decision making (politicians).

Using the specific example of vaccines is fine. But addressing concerns over each and every specific example means many small fights (which are hard to win) and does nothing to tackle the underlying cause.

If you focus on the topic as on of decision making, you can look at how anti-vaccer communities make decisions, how politicians make decisions, how doctors collectively advise the public, and how corporations 'decide' to maximise their profits. I suspect there are problems with all areas there.
The reason why the Vaccine court was created was because the government was afraid of not being able to maintain supply of important vaccines (many DPT providers went out of business). The Vaccine court keeps the excessive payouts generated by the US legal system in check. I don't see a problem with that.

I think it is important to talk about specifics here as I am guessing I know what vaccine Fluminator really wants to talk about (Gardasil), I just want him to say it. Many conservative people don't like Gardasil because they believe protecting against what effectively is a sexually transmitted disease encourages promiscuity. There are a lot of lies being promoted about this vaccine to try to discredit it (e.g. BS memes being passed around about how it causes death).

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Re: Vaccines

#6 Post by Fluminator » Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:48 pm

I don't know about that one specifically, or at least not by that name. I am a little confused why it's so important to vaccinate all babies with STD vaccines when I doubt they're going to be sexually promiscuous though. It will take me some time before I type out a couple of the more specific vaccines I have issues with. Just hang tight

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Re: Vaccines

#7 Post by Fluminator » Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:02 pm

orathaic wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:14 am
Your thread has the wrong title, this isn't about vaccines specifically. You have a problem with corporate practice in the pharma industry and with govt regulations (or lack thereof)

You could also talk about lobbying, and how corporations affect those regulations.
You don't seem to be concerned about public trust in vaccines, and how they have been so successful (nobody knows a child who died from measles...) that vaccination rates have dropped (thousands of measles cases across Europe and the US).

How we make decisions is the core of it. How capitalism and profit motives shouldn't be trusted completely. Even a libertarian would say there is a problem (ie you should be able to sue for damages...) but the problem is how profit makers (the capitalists) exert undue influence over decision making (politicians).

Using the specific example of vaccines is fine. But addressing concerns over each and every specific example means many small fights (which are hard to win) and does nothing to tackle the underlying cause.

If you focus on the topic as on of decision making, you can look at how anti-vaccer communities make decisions, how politicians make decisions, how doctors collectively advise the public, and how corporations 'decide' to maximise their profits. I suspect there are problems with all areas there.
I think I agree with most of this post, but the specific example of vaccines is extremely important. When we're injecting chemicals into people (and babies) we better make sure health is prioritized over profit, since the ramifications could be deadly.
Considering the industry isn't held accountable for damages done, and people are basically required to get them, and any public conversation is pretty much shut down and concerns are labeled as quack, and some of the regulations are incredibly lax right now (which I can get into more specifics soon), I could see this being a recipe for disaster even if it's fine right now.

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Re: Vaccines

#8 Post by Vaporwave » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:01 pm

Interesting, I care about vaccines because for my US trip I'm required to do a bunch of them to gain entrance

I'm accepting because it's the US, if a different country were to make me jump over so many hurdles, I would pass. I think it's worth it and I think it depends on the region. If it's approved by the American Doctors Association, then rest assured it's acceptable.

I would suggest being scared if you're to take vaccines in any other country, especially less developed ones.

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Re: Vaccines

#9 Post by orathaic » Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:42 am

I don't think we (in Ireland) give the hpv vaccine to babies, it is offered as standard to school girls of about 11 to 12, and there is talk of expanding this to include boys, - in the hope of a massive reduction in cervical cancer rates (if the boys are no longer acting as carriers).

I am not worried about 'pumping chemicals' into my baby. The millions of bacteria, viruses, and fungi, she has been exposed to in the first weeks of her life did not overwhelm her immune system, giving several specific samples of dead / neutered viruses is great.

I've also seen some woo about breast feeding being this magical cure-all. Better than a flu vaccine. And I have to admit, when both me and my partner got sick this winter (rota virus, I think, not flu) I was really fucking glad the baby didn't. She was exposed to either antibodies in the breast milk, which offered protection, or some other thing. But flu vaccine are still really useful.

Shared immunity between breastfeeding mother and child is fucking amazing. But it isn't a substitute for vaccines.

I'm afraid I'm not aware of any of the corporate practices and regulation issues you discussed being applicable in the EU. But I'm fully supportive of policy change in this area to socialise vast swathes of the drug development industry.

Ban manufacturers from doing research and development; have them license a drug from state bodies (and universities) so they pay for the privilege of offering a drug/vaccine to the public. And take drug development as seriously as the US takes weapons development. DARPA/Pentagon style investments...

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