Feel the Bern 2.0

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flash2015
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Re: Feel the Bern 2.0

#21 Post by flash2015 » Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:11 am

Senlac wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 5:43 pm
orathaic wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:33 pm
Flash, can you explain how and when America was great before... And maybe why it isn't now?
I have no axe to grind regarding US politics, but I don’t think targeting the “MAGA” slogan (which was clearly effective for the Donald in 2016) will contribute towards preventing him win in 2020. I know negative advertising can help in politics, but negatively attacking a slogan is very unlikely to help.

My view is Clinton lost last time around by failing to inspire the American voter. MAGA might not be the most intellectual catch phrase, but unless the Democrats create a “better” one, MAGA wins again, even if/because opposition criticise it as meaningless
For many people Trump's association with MAGA has very strong negative connotations. Given his strongly anti-foreigner rhetoric, to many people "Make America Great Again" means "Make America White Again", that America was somehow better in the long distant less tolerant past.

I was having a joke of course. You are right of course that targeting the slogan in an election is a losing proposition. It will just further inflame the divisions that Trump has been actively feeding in his presidency.

I think many people read too much into the wins of this politician or that politician. Clinton won in 92 because of the recession and because of Perot. September 11th saved Bush's presidency. Obama may not have won without the financial crisis (Obama sharply pulled ahead when Lehman collapsed). Trump won because of the last minute investigation of Hillary's emails...and even with that he won only barely against a candidate that had all the charisma of a rock and has a knack for acting in a way that made any "scandal" ten times worse. Whilst 2 years is a long time and anything can happen at least at this point and as long as the democrats don't choose a candidate too crazy I think Trump has a big hill to climb to be re-elected.

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Re: Feel the Bern 2.0

#22 Post by JECE » Fri Feb 22, 2019 1:16 am

Senlac wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 5:43 pm
orathaic wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:33 pm
Flash, can you explain how and when America was great before... And maybe why it isn't now?
I have no axe to grind regarding US politics, but I don’t think targeting the “MAGA” slogan (which was clearly effective for the Donald in 2016) will contribute towards preventing him win in 2020. I know negative advertising can help in politics, but negatively attacking a slogan is very unlikely to help.

My view is Clinton lost last time around by failing to inspire the American voter. MAGA might not be the most intellectual catch phrase, but unless the Democrats create a “better” one, MAGA wins again, even if/because opposition criticise it as meaningless
Bernie had/has a much better slogan:
A Future to Believe In
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Re: Feel the Bern 2.0

#23 Post by JECE » Fri Feb 22, 2019 1:22 am

My fellow webDippers, I posted Bernie's letter to hopefully redirect the conversation towards the issues. How can we have a conversation about presidential politics without touching on why a given candidate is in the race, or what they stand for?

Could we at least try to do have a real discussion?

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Re: Feel the Bern 2.0

#24 Post by Randomizer » Fri Feb 22, 2019 3:17 am

brainbomb wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:16 pm
The problem with Bernie is the same problem with Hillary and the same problem with American Film and Cinema.

Nobodys got the balls to risk anything new anymore
Yeah I agree. Just look at Trump:

Drain the swamp - Trump has the highest rate of staff turnover of any recent president between leaving office due to corruption and lack of ethics or being fired for not going along with corruption and lack of ethics.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/05/politics ... index.html
https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/11/politics ... index.html

Foreign Policy changes:

North Korea - First president to meet with the leader to get nuclear disarmament - Failure

https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/12/politics ... index.html

Syria - Withdrawing without completing the mission
Afghanistan - Withdrawing without completing the mission
Iraq - Staying to get the oil

The Wall - 2 years and Mexico still hasn't paid

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Re: Feel the Bern 2.0

#25 Post by orathaic » Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:09 am

Octavious wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:35 pm
orathaic wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:33 pm
Flash, can you explain how and when America was great before... And maybe why it isn't now?
If you're great do you necessarily have to stop being great in order to be great again? One can be great on Monday, and great again on Tuesday, without ever having to suffer the long dark tea time of mediocrity in between.
The implication of that phrase is that America is not currently great. At least as I interpret it. Like Trump supporters think the US has lost its way, but they will return it to greatness.

I'm just wondering what was lost?

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Re: Feel the Bern 2.0

#26 Post by Octavious » Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:31 am

orathaic wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:09 am
The implication of that phrase is that America is not currently great. At least as I interpret it. Like Trump supporters think the US has lost its way, but they will return it to greatness.
Is that any different to any other Presidential candidate, when it comes down to it? Bernie in that speech has listed a large number of reasons why America is currently sub-great, and presumably if he solves the issues it will become great. And every campaign by a political party that's held power previously has tried to convey the idea that things were pretty good the last time they were in charge.

Except perhaps for Corbyn's Labour, who argue with venom that the Tories are crap and Labour before them were really just Tories in disguise and they were crap too, but not quite as crap as the uber-crap Tories that came before.
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Re: Feel the Bern 2.0

#27 Post by Randomizer » Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:15 pm

But the last time the Republicans were in charge in the US was under Bush II.

We had the worst terrorist attack on 9/11.
We got into two wars that still aren't over and mark the longest continuous time US forces have fought exceeding even Vietnam.
We were in an economic recession.
We went from running annual budget surpluses to deficits as far as the eye can see. The government didn't even count the war costs in the budget in order to make annual deficits seem smaller.

Do we really want to go back to that?
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Re: Feel the Bern 2.0

#28 Post by flash2015 » Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:19 pm

Octavious wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:04 am
I'm running for president because I firmly believe that the Democrats are in such a hopeless mess that even a near octogenarian with a track record in failing to win electoral races is a better prospect than the rest of them.

Bernie Sanders
I don't know. I believe so many democrats are getting into the race because Trump looks weak currently and is believed to be eminently beatable, democrats are hyper-energized for 2020 as well as it being unlikely that the democrats will "anoint" the 2020 contender as they effectively did with Hillary.

Sure, Bernie is in for now but I wouldn't count on his chances for getting the nomination...especially with so many others with similar views in the field too.

Anyway it is still early days yet. The first debate isn't until June. I hope Andrew Yang can be there so we can have a UBI debate. My dream ticket at least currently would be Tulsi Gabbard (foreign policy)/Andrew Yang(UBI)...though that may change as I hear more.

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Re: Feel the Bern 2.0

#29 Post by orathaic » Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:24 pm

Even if Bernie doesn't get the nomination, just by being there and talking about the issues he cares about, he forces other candidates to address some of those issues. He could be playing to lose the nomination but move the political conversation (at least within the democratic party) to the left (eg: environmental and racial justice education and healthcare...)

And just by talking about these issues will give the Republicans something to come after the dem nomination, at which point they likely have to choose between owning what they said or losing the base that got them nominated...

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Re: Feel the Bern 2.0

#30 Post by Greg_the_republican » Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:37 am

Am I the only one here who thinks Trump is a good president?

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Re: Feel the Bern 2.0

#31 Post by Octavious » Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:41 am

orathaic wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:24 pm
Even if Bernie doesn't get the nomination, just by being there and talking about the issues he cares about, he forces other candidates to address some of those issues. He could be playing to lose the nomination but move the political conversation (at least within the democratic party) to the left (eg: environmental and racial justice education and healthcare...)

And just by talking about these issues will give the Republicans something to come after the dem nomination, at which point they likely have to choose between owning what they said or losing the base that got them nominated...
Playing to lose is certainly achievable, and if this is the goal of many Democrats we could be moving towards a period of unparalleled Democrat success. As for moving the argument, in what world would those have not been issues regardless?

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Re: Feel the Bern 2.0

#32 Post by brainbomb » Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:56 am

Senlac wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:46 pm
brainbomb wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:16 pm
The problem with Bernie is the same problem with Hillary and the same problem with American Film and Cinema.

Nobodys got the balls to risk anything new anymore
I think you are absolutely right on this point & for 2 primary reasons;

1. No trust that the person promising “something new” will/can actually deliver.
2. Too many occasions when after the promise of “something new”, it didn’t happen.

The people have become very cynical when anyone offers anything other than that which they are familiar. This is not only true of USA in my opinion & has become endemic of “Western Civilisation”.
People think the President is far more powerful than it really is. And the fact that it ISNT is a good thing. Having a Congress prevants Tyranny. even when all branches are dominated by one party, the states still can control their elected officials and hold their country intact.

Not a fan of Trump. Democrats should do what they did with Obama in 2007 and have large debates.
I think people will be amazed by Booker on a similair level to Obama.

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Re: Feel the Bern 2.0

#33 Post by orathaic » Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:25 am

Octavious wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:41 am

Playing to lose is certainly achievable, and if this is the goal of many Democrats we could be moving towards a period of unparalleled Democrat success. As for moving the argument, in what world would those have not been issues regardless?
In what world? I believe it is called Fox&Friends, and the inside of Trump's head

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Re: Feel the Bern 2.0

#34 Post by Octavious » Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:10 am

[quote=orathaic post_id=61048 time=1550913911 user_id=64]
[quote=Octavious post_id=61042 time=1550893314 user_id=71]

Playing to lose is certainly achievable, and if this is the goal of many Democrats we could be moving towards a period of unparalleled Democrat success. As for moving the argument, in what world would those have not been issues regardless?
[/quote]

In what world? I believe it is called Fox&Friends, and the inside of Trump's head
[/quote]

Fox & Friends? Of the 1/3 of a billion people in the USA, just over a million watch it. It's an irrelevance that the wider media only pay attention to because the American left are obsessed with it. To put that into perspective, the audience of Fox & Friends is matched by the number of immigrants the US receives every year.

As for Trump's head, he seems to have a far better understanding of the issues that do or don't matter to the American people than pretty much anyone else in American politics.
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Re: Feel the Bern 2.0

#35 Post by Senlac » Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:17 pm

Greg_the_republican wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:37 am
Am I the only one here who thinks Trump is a good president?
I can second the motion if actions alone are under consideration, some of which could leave a positive legacy (tax reductions & improved trade negotiations).
However I think some words cause unnecessary friction & are only said for the sake of re-election, rather than his presidential role.

My opinion might not count for much though because although a US Citizen, I’ve chosen not to live there & didn’t much like the place under Bush or Obama either.

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Re: Feel the Bern 2.0

#36 Post by flash2015 » Sat Feb 23, 2019 4:01 pm

Greg_the_republican wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:37 am
Am I the only one here who thinks Trump is a good president?
Why do you think he has been a good president? What has he achieved in your opinion?

Tax cuts? Yes, it was good to remove the incentive for companies to keep their money overseas...but he has just run up the credit card again. This can't go on forever. I know the Republicans hope to "starve the beast" to effectively reverse the new deal but it is going to eventually lead to a run on the dollar and massive, massive "Greek style" economic pain. And the removal of the deduction of state and local taxes is just going to make the northeast and the western states bluer. He doesn't care as he thinks he can get to 270 with only a minority of the vote just like last time (again this is why the electoral college in its current form is so wrong - the only people the president needs to care about live in the swing states).

Immigration? He has poisoned the well for immigration reform meaning that nothing meaningful will come from his presidency here...apart from perhaps some token additional pieces of wall which will do little.

Trade? He basically just renamed NAFTA with minimal changes. He has started a reckless trade war with China with no exit strategy (if he wants to succeed, he has to allow China to "save face" but I suspect his ego won't allow that)
which is hurting the US in a massive way. For example, the governor of South Dakota says has "devastated" her state and will only get worse:

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news ... with-china

Stacking the courts with partisans? This is only a plus to a small minority of the population. Again this will just increase division. Personally I believe the courts in the USA have way too much power for an unelected body with lifetime appointments. Almost any legislation or government action with more than token opposition will be bogged down in the courts for years/decades.

International relations in general? He has been ruthlessly attacking the international bodies the US setup or helped setup to project power (e.g. NATO). What the hell is he smoking? And he has been cosying up with dictators and despots whilst going out of his way to attack our traditional friends and allies. I don't see how this can make America "great again". Do you?
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Re: Feel the Bern 2.0

#37 Post by JECE » Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:24 am

You've got 35 minutes left to send Bernie 2020 something before the FEC deadline. Put your money where your mouth is, folks:
https://act.berniesanders.com/go/deadline_day

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Re: Feel the Bern 2.0

#38 Post by Octavious » Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:32 am

Suggest donation options starting at $3, $27, $50...

$27??? Where did that come from? Is 7 the new 9.99? You can almost picture the committee as they decided what it should be. 30 sounds too much, and 29 sounds like you're using marketing tricks to fool people into thinking it's less than it is. Also people like 27 because it's the bit of the 9 times table they can easily remember, and is thus relatable whilst hinting at hidden depths, just like Bernie!

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Re: Feel the Bern 2.0

#39 Post by JECE » Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:50 pm

Octavious: $27 was the average donation during the Bernie 2016 campaign. It's a mark of pride that Bernie was able to raise so much money on small donations (without big donors or corporate donations). This round the average donation has so far been even lower.
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Re: Feel the Bern 2.0

#40 Post by Octavious » Mon Apr 01, 2019 5:04 pm

Ah, that makes sense. A little bit of colour in the grey world of political finance.

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