Multiculturalism Ruins Nations

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Fluminator
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Re: Multiculturalism Ruins Nations

#41 Post by Fluminator » Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:25 pm

Fwiw I'm quite conservative and traditional if that isn't clear. So I'm giving what I understand of the progressive movement. I have progressive friends from university.
Don't take what I'm saying as gospel about it, maybe an actual progressive would disagree with me.

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Re: Multiculturalism Ruins Nations

#42 Post by Senlac » Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:37 pm

Fluminator wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:18 pm
Yeah, having a family is usually a healthier way to deal. We're taught in university by progressives that having children is selfish and bad for the environment though, plus having actual stable relationships is a foreign concept for many for a variety of reasons. Lol
I can’t say unbelievable because sadly it’s all too believable! Having a hoard of children might reasonably be considered putting unnecessary load on the environment, but other than that such teachings are pure c—p.
Family, created by stable long lasting relationships, hopefully blessed by children that are loved & cherished by both parents, is the only thing that matters & the only thing that lives on after your demise.
People crave leaving a “legacy”, but often disregard the one situation where they have a duty to leave a legacy & can be their only real opportunity to leave a legacy.

After 50 years as a London stockbroker my dad said “the day he was forgotten at his stock exchange company was the day he left the office on his last day”. I doubt it was absolutely true, because he was loved by many, but he made the point to me to illustrate that career & aspirations of greatness were nothing compared to being a good husband & father.
I have tried my best to not only follow in his footsteps, but pass on the motivations he preached. It’s all you can do.
But I promise it’s far more rewarding that trifling issues such as gender identity, redistribution of wealth, victimhood, institutional prejudices & most of the endless c—p being peddled by “progressives”. All to be forgotten the last day they leave the office:-)
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Re: Multiculturalism Ruins Nations

#43 Post by Puddle » Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:41 pm

@ Fluminator I think I'm fairly close to a 'progressive' so I'll go ahead an weigh in in some of the other topics this conversation has touched on (the multicultural question is a little big for me to tackle at the moment though).


I think Flum is essentially correct about liberal activism in the United States having 'guilt' as a component motivator, but I think most of it has to do with the natural desire of the youth to change things. Nearly every generation in the US for the last century has made some pretty drastic changes to American society and norms.

While I very much intend to have children, most of my friends do not. The reasons they have stated to me when we've discussed the matter range from 'I don't want to bring children into this screwed up world' to 'We don't see how we can afford it' all the way to 'we just want to enjoy our lives without all the baggage that children bring.' In short, the decision comes from diverse motivations, but the most common reasons I've heard have to do with finances and access to healthcare.

Which brings me to 'socialism.' I hear from a lot of my older relatives, including my parents, that the current interest in socialism from millennials and Gen-Xers is a mix of ignorance, spoilt-ness, and 'pie-in-the-sky' idealism. While to a certain extent that is true, I think it unfairly ignores the legitimate complaints of literally millions of Americans who find that the current system does not work for them. While I wouldn't go so far as to call what the United States has 'Capitalism' it is the label most apply. Aside from the present complaints regarding our Economic system, as a bearer of an Economics degree, I have serious concerns about the trajectory of our system and its continued sustainability, and regardless what is 'fair' or 'moral' if enough people become sufficiently displeased with our economic and political system they will tear it down. A system which has so thoroughly failed its participants that they choose to destroy it, will deserve it's destruction.
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Re: Multiculturalism Ruins Nations

#44 Post by Senlac » Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:14 pm

Puddle wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:41 pm
@ Fluminator I think I'm fairly close to a 'progressive' so I'll go ahead an weigh in in some of the other topics this conversation has touched on (the multicultural question is a little big for me to tackle at the moment though).


I think Flum is essentially correct about liberal activism in the United States having 'guilt' as a component motivator, but I think most of it has to do with the natural desire of the youth to change things. Nearly every generation in the US for the last century has made some pretty drastic changes to American society and norms.

While I very much intend to have children, most of my friends do not. The reasons they have stated to me when we've discussed the matter range from 'I don't want to bring children into this screwed up world' to 'We don't see how we can afford it' all the way to 'we just want to enjoy our lives without all the baggage that children bring.' In short, the decision comes from diverse motivations, but the most common reasons I've heard have to do with finances and access to healthcare.

Which brings me to 'socialism.' I hear from a lot of my older relatives, including my parents, that the current interest in socialism from millennials and Gen-Xers is a mix of ignorance, spoilt-ness, and 'pie-in-the-sky' idealism. While to a certain extent that is true, I think it unfairly ignores the legitimate complaints of literally millions of Americans who find that the current system does not work for them. While I wouldn't go so far as to call what the United States has 'Capitalism' it is the label most apply. Aside from the present complaints regarding our Economic system, as a bearer of an Economics degree, I have serious concerns about the trajectory of our system and its continued sustainability, and regardless what is 'fair' or 'moral' if enough people become sufficiently displeased with our economic and political system they will tear it down. A system which has so thoroughly failed its participants that they choose to destroy it, will deserve it's destruction.
As someone in their 60’s & from the 60’s I liked this post greatly. The comments relating to having (not having) children are all valid. I hope circumstances change for those currently against the idea.
I’m English, so grew up with the NHS (“Socialist” Healthcare in USA terms) & currently live in Costa Rica that has “Caja” which is their version of the same thing. I love both. The 25 years in which I lived in several nations which had private healthcare insurance systems, were for me at least, not as good.
I thoroughly identify with young people desiring change (I’ve been there) & wish them all the luck in the world achieving some. There’s plenty of room for improvement... I sincerely hope that young folks get to grips with real problems such as healthcare & environment, rather than wondering which bathroom someone who identifies in a specific way should/shouldn’t use. There’s important stuff to deal with that should be focussing young & able minds.

Best Regards (now an old conservative) :-D

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Re: Multiculturalism Ruins Nations

#45 Post by flash2015 » Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:26 pm

Fluminator wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:18 pm
Yeah, having a family is usually a healthier way to deal. We're taught in university by progressives that having children is selfish and bad for the environment though, plus having actual stable relationships is a foreign concept for many for a variety of reasons. Lol
I have been busy so haven't caught up with the rest of the thread here but this comment piqued my interest. Is this something you have experienced personally or is this something you heard from someone else...or heard some commentator say this was happening on uni campuses? I have never heard someone actively try and discourage anyone from having children because they believe it is selfish. If I have heard this argument at all it has been only to justify someone's own personal decision.

At least from my experience, the derision has mostly been in the other direction. If you don't have kids, you always have to provide a justification. In society there are a whole host of commentators which will pour scorn on people that don't have kids. For example, Jordan Peterson (I have watched way too much of this s***) pretty much says there is something wrong with you (especially if you are a woman) if you don't want children. Stephan Molyneux believes, if you are white, that you are letting your race down if you don't have kids.

I guess this could have a thread of its own but I am of the opinion that having or not having kids is not more right, it is all personal choice. If you want kids and find meaning and purpose in it, that is wonderful. If you don't want kids it is great as well. Each to his/her own.

I however don't believe as a society and I don't believe it is moral that we should actively be pushing people to have more children than they want to have (e.g. the former Treasurer of Australia said that parents should have "one child for the father, one for the mother and one for the country"). Building economic growth on ever-increasing population, unless we can quickly start to colonize other planets, is going to be eventually unsustainable.

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Re: Multiculturalism Ruins Nations

#46 Post by New England Fire Squad » Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:38 pm

TrPrado wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:57 am
New England Fire Squad wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:35 am
I understand what you are saying, but my rebuttal is simply this: why should we assume our magic dirt will make people change their views? This sounds like Karl Rove babbling about how because Hispanics have 'family values' they are natural Republicans. Well yeah, but the vast majority of South America, for many reasons, is heavily left wing. Why would that change? It really didn't, and it really hasn't.
Assuming the demographics of a group of people who choose to uproot their entire lives to live in a completely different country is going to be ideologically the exact same as the place they're leaving behind abandons any and all attempts to look at context. Their views don't change based on where they live, sure, but that's entirely irrelevant and not something anybody has ever claimed. These people may share a culture with their home country, but there's some massive disconnect between them and their country.
I think this is a fair point, and makes sense, at least on paper. However the disconnect comes when one realizes that outside of communist/post-communist areas, this hasn't happened.

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Re: Multiculturalism Ruins Nations

#47 Post by New England Fire Squad » Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:45 pm

ILN wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:36 am
New England Fire Squad wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:53 am
why is America becoming more favorable to socialism? Is it possibly because a much larger percentage of the population now comes from places that like it?
No I don't think so. My parents came to Canada to escape communism. Though they left after the fall of the communist regime, the country was (is, and probably will still be for the next 15 years at least) ruined by communism. The Russians here in Toronto also came here to escape the soviet union. Same with the Chinese here (a lot are from Hong Kong and they aren't big fans of the mainland).

If you actually look at who the communists on campus are, its the white kids lol. Which is understandable. When you are born into a society with a free market, freedom of expression, religion, affiliation - every freedom and right you can think of, you take them for granted and they lose value. We live in a society where we have it so good, that we focus on non-issues like gender pronouns. We don't have any 'real' issues compared to the Syrians who have had their country destroyed, or the Sudanese. While the North Koreans are starving to death in labour camps, our concern is rising obesity.

IMO, spoiled white kids who have it too good in life want to spice it up by being a 'revolutionary' and 'smashing the patriarchy' or 'smashing capitalism' and whatever other 'smashing' they wanna do. Young people have always been rebellious. (a silver lining to this is that conservatism is now the new counter culture)

Socialism is on the rise because universities are indoctrinating machines staffed by radical professors that proselytize their students, and because of the bias in the media. Also, a lot of the concerns socialists have are valid, and an increasingly corporatist america doesn't help.
All good points, though I would make minor quibble and disagree with the majority of leftists on college campuses being white kids- at least in the US. The students pushing for reparations payment at Georgetown University as part of college tuition aren't, or at least most their leaders are not. Certainly the more important point here is that whites aged 18-29 voted majority for Trump (and quite strongly) whereas the youth of all other races save African American voted far more heavily for Clinton than their parents or grandparents.

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Re: Multiculturalism Ruins Nations

#48 Post by New England Fire Squad » Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:46 pm

To the rest of you, I want to say I appreciate the very good discussion about an incredibly divisive issue, and that for the most part this was quite civil and illuminating.
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Re: Multiculturalism Ruins Nations

#49 Post by New England Fire Squad » Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:50 pm

flash2015 wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:26 pm
Fluminator wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:18 pm
Yeah, having a family is usually a healthier way to deal. We're taught in university by progressives that having children is selfish and bad for the environment though, plus having actual stable relationships is a foreign concept for many for a variety of reasons. Lol
I have been busy so haven't caught up with the rest of the thread here but this comment piqued my interest. Is this something you have experienced personally or is this something you heard from someone else...or heard some commentator say this was happening on uni campuses? I have never heard someone actively try and discourage anyone from having children because they believe it is selfish. If I have heard this argument at all it has been only to justify someone's own personal decision.

At least from my experience, the derision has mostly been in the other direction. If you don't have kids, you always have to provide a justification. In society there are a whole host of commentators which will pour scorn on people that don't have kids. For example, Jordan Peterson (I have watched way too much of this s***) pretty much says there is something wrong with you (especially if you are a woman) if you don't want children. Stephan Molyneux believes, if you are white, that you are letting your race down if you don't have kids.

I guess this could have a thread of its own but I am of the opinion that having or not having kids is not more right, it is all personal choice. If you want kids and find meaning and purpose in it, that is wonderful. If you don't want kids it is great as well. Each to his/her own.

I however don't believe as a society and I don't believe it is moral that we should actively be pushing people to have more children than they want to have (e.g. the former Treasurer of Australia said that parents should have "one child for the father, one for the mother and one for the country"). Building economic growth on ever-increasing population, unless we can quickly start to colonize other planets, is going to be eventually unsustainable.
FYI, I was taught the same at uni- that it was bad for us and the planet to have children, that it made or lives boring and unlivable, and that we just shouldn't have them- something that especially bothered me about this were that the very same people were the strongest proponents of immigration, supposedly to shore up our various entitlement programs to keep them financially solvent. This ticked me off to no end.

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Re: Multiculturalism Ruins Nations

#50 Post by New England Fire Squad » Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:51 pm

Fluminator wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:25 pm
Fwiw I'm quite conservative and traditional if that isn't clear. So I'm giving what I understand of the progressive movement. I have progressive friends from university.
Don't take what I'm saying as gospel about it, maybe an actual progressive would disagree with me.
I've had a similar experience, and a good number of my friends are liberal-leftist as well.

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Re: Multiculturalism Ruins Nations

#51 Post by New England Fire Squad » Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:56 pm

Senlac wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:59 pm
Fluminator wrote;

“Thing is, we feel extremely guilty (at least subconsciously) about how well we have it, and we aren't really sure how to accept or live with this. We learn in history all the terrible stories and the news in all the other countries about how bad people have it. One of the best ways to cope with this, is to become victims ourselves. Victimhood automatically gives us a bit of "free virtue points" and if we have it bad, we feel better about ourselves because our guilt gets removed.”

I have a better idea than “victimhood”.
Pass it on to the next generation. It works by the way.

In my family most grew up & remained in south London dumps, never owning property, never going to university, never being professionals. Remarkably my parents were made of different stuff. My dad studied, became stockbroker & raised 3 “spoilt” graduates, who beget 7 “spoilt” graduates now living in places like Dubai, California & much nicer parts of England than South London & there are currently 6 of the next “spoilt” generation working there way to primary school.
All are doted upon by caring parents & will get every advantage in life, with only one duty attached. Pass it on to the next generation...

I asked my dad what really counted in his life (when he was old). He said “being a husband & father. Nothing else is relevant.” After a 50 year stockbroking career most would be jealous of achieving (coming from the slums).
If it wasn’t for he & my Mum’s efforts none of that would have happened. So rather than feeble identity politics BS & failed political ideologies & victimhood, how about preparing to become great parents, capable of supporting the next generation & do one hell of a good job at it when you get the chance. After all “nothing else is relevant”, take my Dad’s word for it.
I loved your comment, especially the last bit. I try to live my life as if nothing else matters other than being a good husband, good friend, and a future good father. Thank you for your comment.

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Re: Multiculturalism Ruins Nations

#52 Post by Fluminator » Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:25 pm

flash2015 wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:26 pm
I have been busy so haven't caught up with the rest of the thread here but this comment piqued my interest. Is this something you have experienced personally or is this something you heard from someone else...or heard some commentator say this was happening on uni campuses? I have never heard someone actively try and discourage anyone from having children because they believe it is selfish. If I have heard this argument at all it has been only to justify someone's own personal decision.
It might not be taught directly from the professors' pulpit, but they're taught people are ruining the environment and that the population of the world is increasing way too fast. When that's continually hyped up in most political and society talk, having kids will be seen as adding to the problem.
Not everyone shames other people for having so many kids, but to the more extreme environmental types, judging people for having kids is no more different than judging people who drive SUV's to work every day.

And the thing is, there probably is going to be an issue with overpopulation as you said anyway, so maybe they're right to judge? It's another discussion.

I'm leaning towards the point where I plan adopt since the foster care is loaded with kids looking for parents.
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Re: Multiculturalism Ruins Nations

#53 Post by flash2015 » Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:39 pm

New England Fire Squad wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:50 pm
FYI, I was taught the same at uni- that it was bad for us and the planet to have children, that it made or lives boring and unlivable, and that we just shouldn't have them- something that especially bothered me about this were that the very same people were the strongest proponents of immigration, supposedly to shore up our various entitlement programs to keep them financially solvent. This ticked me off to no end.
If your understanding of the argument is correct (i.e. it is wrong for you as an individual to have children but it is OK for immigrants to have them and we should let them in the millions to make up for us not having any kids) then obviously that is wrong and doesn't make sense.

But I believe the argument is much more nuanced than that. This is the progressive curse. The nuance of progressive arguments easily gets lost allowing the arguments to be misrepresented either intentionally or unintentionally.

Here is my understanding - at a government level it is wrong to be instituting policies actively encouraging population growth by more procreation as we are likely already over the carrying capacity of the planet. I don't think any progressive is actively encouraging additional population growth overseas, if anything they are promoting less population growth through better rights for women and better access to contraception. If there is a demographic hurdle that will be problematic for the economy then a reasonable solution is to bring in immigrants from countries to sure up the economy.

Phrased this way, I don't see anything wrong with this argument. Do you still see a problem though? If though, why?

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Re: Multiculturalism Ruins Nations

#54 Post by ILN » Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:46 pm

flash2015 wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:39 pm
Here is my understanding - at a government level it is wrong to be instituting policies actively encouraging population growth by more procreation as we are likely already over the carrying capacity of the planet.
[...]
Phrased this way, I don't see anything wrong with this argument. Do you still see a problem though? If though, why?
Immigration is government supported population growth though, just not by procreation. Why is it bad for a government to encourage growth by procreation but good to grow the population through immigration?
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Re: Multiculturalism Ruins Nations

#55 Post by flash2015 » Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:53 pm

ILN wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:46 pm
flash2015 wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:39 pm
Here is my understanding - at a government level it is wrong to be instituting policies actively encouraging population growth by more procreation as we are likely already over the carrying capacity of the planet.
[...]
Phrased this way, I don't see anything wrong with this argument. Do you still see a problem though? If though, why?
Immigration is government supported population growth though, just not by procreation. Why is it bad for a government to encourage growth by procreation but good to grow the population through immigration?
It depends whether you see the problem on a national or a global basis. If you see it on a national basis, you are right - the impact on national population growth is the same.

If you see it on a global level though, increased procreation increases global population but immigration does not, it just shifts it. Unless you are suggesting that immigration means that population will increase overseas to make up for all the emigrants, but I am not aware that this is the case.

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Re: Multiculturalism Ruins Nations

#56 Post by ILN » Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:42 pm

Well, I do see it on a national basis :)

I don't think nations have the responsibility to lower fertility rate and compensate through immigration as a means to lower world population. That's pretty absurd to be honest. The countries growing their populations and which have migration are responsible. It really doesn't make sense to encourage fewer children and immigration at the same time, with the purpose of lowering overall global population. That's some globalist bs lol.

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Re: Multiculturalism Ruins Nations

#57 Post by flash2015 » Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:53 pm

ILN wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:42 pm
Well, I do see it on a national basis :)

I don't think nations have the responsibility to lower fertility rate and compensate through immigration as a means to lower world population. That's pretty absurd to be honest. The countries growing their populations and which have migration are responsible. It really doesn't make sense to encourage fewer children and immigration at the same time, with the purpose of lowering overall global population. That's some globalist bs lol.
So which part is absurd and why? "That's some globalist bs lol" is not an argument.

Do you agree there is a population problem or not (many people don't - Ben Shapiro believes that the population can grow indefinitely)? If not, let's discuss.

If you believe there is a population problem, do you think we should not do anything until "other countries fix their problem first" (especially when the US government when run by Republicans actively advocates against birth control overseas)? This is an argument to do nothing...as every other country will say the same.

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Re: Multiculturalism Ruins Nations

#58 Post by ILN » Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:15 pm

I don't think there's a population problem. I don't think the population can grow indefinitely either, and there certainly is a cap, but we are very far from reaching that cap.

As far as living space is concerned, there is plenty of it.
For water, ending wasteful practices, making agriculture more efficient, waste water treatment, and desalination technology improvements will ensure there will be enough water.
For food, hydroponics, automated farms (weed picking robots, etc), efficient practices, vertical farming, desalination technology, ending wasteful policies (such as supply management of dairy in Canada, where daily producers flush thousands of liters of milk down the drain to keep prices high), and reducing food waste.

Also, 'overpopulation' will solve itself; Developed nations have lower fertility rates. As China and India will become developed as well, their populations will start to decline as they have in Europe and North America. As nations around the world develop and living standards rise, fertility rates will drop. In fact its predicted the world population will plateau.

So overpopulation is not a problem. Though that's not the reason, as even if it were, it would still be ok for nations with low fertility rates to have programs aimed at boosting it rather than make up with immigration. With immigration they are taking the burden of overpopulation entirely on themselves and its not fair. Countries should be responsible for themselves.
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Re: Multiculturalism Ruins Nations

#59 Post by ILN » Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:36 pm

I'm not even arguing against immigration, or arguing for increasing fertility rates.

I'm arguing that its completely absurd to push for immigration while at the same time discouraging having children. It makes no sense. You have immigration to make up for a low fertility rate.

Encouraging immigration and discouraging having children is essentially population transfer.

And overpopulation is not even a problem.

Supposing it is, however, why would the nations with low fertility rates be responsible and obliged to make up for the offenders? Let the countries with high fertility rates experience all the issues that come with overpopulation and deal with the problem. They will for sure find solutions. China had the one child policy, and it worked.

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Re: Multiculturalism Ruins Nations

#60 Post by Kingdroid » Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:44 pm

This thread is a big ol yikes. Imagine publicly outing yourself as being a racist shit head. YIKES

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