Multiculturalism Ruins Nations

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flash2015
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Re: Multiculturalism Ruins Nations

#81 Post by flash2015 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:36 pm

leon1122 wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:27 am
Certain nations with certain ethnicities have produced a disproportionate amount of scientific discoveries and inventions. By reducing their proportion of the world population in relation to the population of less innovative nations and ethnicities, we are breeding out the cream of the crop of the human population.
I haven't come back to this thread in a while. So this is the "Bell Curve" argument I assume (i.e. allegedly Ashkenazi Jews have an average IQ 115, Chinese 102, White 100, Hispanics in the 80s and sub-saharan blacks around 70)? Just making sure.

So there is no other reason why some countries historically did better than others?

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Re: Multiculturalism Ruins Nations

#82 Post by Senlac » Sat Mar 16, 2019 6:01 pm

Vaporwave wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:36 pm
Seen tons of people (on various sites, twitter, etc) being fed up with multiculturalism and I'm trying to understand their points, but I think the main issue they dislike is demographic change.

I want multiculturalism for my country, yet it doesn't happen. I would love to see other faces, other lifestyles when I walk around. Nobody visits us, nobody settles in my country.

The foreigners that came to stay have made great laws and change my country for the better. We finally have laws that require customer service to speak to you and not treat you like dirt, we have laws not to beat up women, we have laws that protect children (yes, my country is that regressive that we needed others to force us to make changes)

It was very common in my country for a child abuser to get a slap on the wrist and blame the child for seducing him. Not even kidding, the more sexual deviant you are, the more you would get a pass. We've changed but not much. We need foreign influences, my country was vile and corrupt without them.
It’s interesting to me that Vaporwave has hit upon an important point about how personal this subject is & generalisation is dangerous. Why do people complain? Why do they approve/disapprove? It’s not a matter that one side is intelligent & the other not.

My view is that everyone will find the “monoculture” or “multiculture” they decide is best for them if they are prepared to move. If you stay where you are & try to push back at changes around you in some form of protest (peaceful or violent) it can never work. Pi—ing into the wind, I’ve heard it called.

My birthplace was London. It’s now completely unacceptable to me & I’d never consider living there again, because of the changes caused by other cultures.
I now live in a “foreign” culture to my own (Latin America) & find it fantastic. I hope it never changes & I find it fits my style like a well worn glove. Took me over 30 years of international travel on 4 continents to find a place I could be so happy.

As a “foreign guest” in “someone else’s” country how could I be so hypocritical to complain about others entering “mine”? Ridiculous.
I guess my biggest point is I searched for & found a culture that I love. I wouldn’t change it for the world. I think the locals would be justifiably upset if I tried. Going to a “foreign” place & imposing my culture on them by being the “little Englishman” is the behaviour I deplore & I believe it cuts both ways.

This may not be “true” for everyone, but it’s “true” for me. As Vaporwave noted it’s a rather personal subject. Whatever the viewpoint, violence is unacceptable.

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Re: Multiculturalism Ruins Nations

#83 Post by Durga » Sat Mar 16, 2019 6:07 pm

Vaporwave wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:36 pm
Seen tons of people (on various sites, twitter, etc) being fed up with multiculturalism and I'm trying to understand their points, but I think the main issue they dislike is demographic change.

I want multiculturalism for my country, yet it doesn't happen. I would love to see other faces, other lifestyles when I walk around. Nobody visits us, nobody settles in my country.

The foreigners that came to stay have made great laws and change my country for the better. We finally have laws that require customer service to speak to you and not treat you like dirt, we have laws not to beat up women, we have laws that protect children (yes, my country is that regressive that we needed others to force us to make changes)

It was very common in my country for a child abuser to get a slap on the wrist and blame the child for seducing him. Not even kidding, the more sexual deviant you are, the more you would get a pass. We've changed but not much. We need foreign influences, my country was vile and corrupt without them.
Lmao you're one of those who's brainwashed into thinking colonialism was actually good for you. I don't know what country you're from but this is sad.

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Re: Multiculturalism Ruins Nations

#84 Post by LeonWalras » Sun Mar 17, 2019 3:46 am

leon1122 wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:00 am
I never specified any race or ethnicity, nor did I deny that Arabs have contributed to the development of science and technology. Some others however...
If I were still a mod, I'd lobby to shadowban you from the forum. Your blatant racism has no place here.
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Re: Multiculturalism Ruins Nations

#85 Post by leon1122 » Sun Mar 17, 2019 5:13 am

LeonWalras wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 3:46 am
If I were still a mod, I'd lobby to shadowban you from the forum. Your blatant racism has no place here.
What? I didn't say anything. Are you afraid that people might question certain preconceptions they have?

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Re: Multiculturalism Ruins Nations

#86 Post by LeonWalras » Sun Mar 17, 2019 6:50 am

Just because you don't say which race you think down on, doesn't mean it isn't you saying it. You think you're avoiding breaking the rules because of this, but you're not.
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Re: Multiculturalism Ruins Nations

#87 Post by leon1122 » Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:04 am

I don't know what you could possibly be talking about. 🤷

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Re: Multiculturalism Ruins Nations

#88 Post by orathaic » Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:08 pm

LeonWalras wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 6:50 am
Just because you don't say which race you think down on, doesn't mean it isn't you saying it. You think you're avoiding breaking the rules because of this, but you're not.
100% this. If I was still a mod... Well it would be like 2008 and we'd have no rules on the forum... But still.

Leon is openly racist and in a world where this results in the murder of minorities it is not acceptable to give voice to his immoral views.

The only advantage to allowing him talk is that we can name* and shame.

*naming the opinions expressed what they are.
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Re: Multiculturalism Ruins Nations

#89 Post by jmo1121109 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 2:07 am

For those who aren't paying attention to all the threads in the politics section please take note of https://www.webdiplomacy.net/contrib/ph ... f=8&t=1360. Some of the content in this thread absolutely contributed to that decision. For the most part people here have been respectful in this discussion. Just a friendly reminder to keep it that way.
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Re: Multiculturalism Ruins Nations

#90 Post by orathaic » Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:27 am

jmo1121109 wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 2:07 am
For those who aren't paying attention to all the threads in the politics section please take note of https://www.webdiplomacy.net/contrib/ph ... f=8&t=1360. Some of the content in this thread absolutely contributed t3o that decision. For the most part people here have been respectful in this discussion. Just a friendly reminder to keep it that way.
I've said it before, and I will say it again. Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from the consequences of that speech. Having named Leon's behaviour and shamed it, I am glad to see the mod team step in and make clear the standards that we as a community expect.

Supporting violence is never acceptable, racism is never acceptable. Those who cheer when other people die are abhorrent and should be shunned.

My only concern is that this is the internet. If we were in a village where everyone who knew Leon shunned him and he had no other options or communities to preach his hate, then this would be enough. Alas he can go about his daily life believing we were all wrong and terrible. Spreading his hateful message on other online communities... I am glad to see webdiplomacy take a stance, as a community, against racism. I do fear it is not enough but it is what we can do.

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Re: Multiculturalism Ruins Nations

#91 Post by MajorMitchell » Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:28 am

Thank you Durga for stepping up immediately to crush this nonsense. Multiculturalism built the modern Australian nation and it's the opponents of multiculturalism who endanger what makes Australia a multicultural success story. The false "it's freedom of speech" defense of the indefensible purveyors of hate speech is again exposed as a fallacy. Further, imho, those apologists for the purveyors of hate speech are enablers of racism, enablers of terrorism committed by right wing extremists. How does it feel to have the blood of innocents on your hands if you have been an apologist, an enabler in posts in the Forum ? You share collective responsibility imho.
If there were any lingering doubts about the wisdom of setting new standards for the Forum then I hope that they are now dashed.
Not every example of hate speech has led to a terrorist attack by a right wing extremist. But every right wing extremist terrorist attack has started with radicalisation linked to hate speech.
So hate speech has to be fought, in all it's disguises, so well done Durga.
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Re: Multiculturalism Ruins Nations

#92 Post by flash2015 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 2:08 pm

orathaic wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:27 am
jmo1121109 wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 2:07 am
For those who aren't paying attention to all the threads in the politics section please take note of https://www.webdiplomacy.net/contrib/ph ... f=8&t=1360. Some of the content in this thread absolutely contributed t3o that decision. For the most part people here have been respectful in this discussion. Just a friendly reminder to keep it that way.
I've said it before, and I will say it again. Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from the consequences of that speech. Having named Leon's behaviour and shamed it, I am glad to see the mod team step in and make clear the standards that we as a community expect.

Supporting violence is never acceptable, racism is never acceptable. Those who cheer when other people die are abhorrent and should be shunned.

My only concern is that this is the internet. If we were in a village where everyone who knew Leon shunned him and he had no other options or communities to preach his hate, then this would be enough. Alas he can go about his daily life believing we were all wrong and terrible. Spreading his hateful message on other online communities... I am glad to see webdiplomacy take a stance, as a community, against racism. I do fear it is not enough but it is what we can do.
Many of us believe arguments over racism are "won", that we don't even need to bother entertaining these arguments because they are so wrong we can reject them out of hand.

I don't think it is so simple though. The internet has enabled more speech than at any time in our history. Along with this unfortunately it has allowed us to fall into "filter bubbles" where we only read/watch what reinforces our opinions rather than challenging them. Even if Leon gets shunned from here he will go back to his "filter bubble" where people will reinforce the idea that we are just impinging his free speech and he is somehow just being principled. From my experience though most "free speech warriors" are quite blatant hypocrites. They only care about speech which agrees with their views which isn't concern for "free speech".

At some level, I think engagement is required, at the very least to understand the real underlying issues which are causing people to think this way whether it be job insecurity, worries about rapid social change, crime, ideas about what it really means to be an Australian, American, Kiwi, Brit etc, etc. These issues are quite complex. People like easy answers so the idea that "It is all because of brown people/black people/Jews/Muslims/foreigners/aliens" etc. is very compelling especially since we have the POTUS at minimum "dog whistling" and sometimes being downright blatant in encouraging these types of beliefs.

Of course these people aren't alone in looking for simple answers to complex problems. "Anti-racism" campaigners can be too easy to blame all inequality of outcomes on racism/sexism. Whilst that may be true to some extent, it is understandable that people will get upset about being constantly called "racist" when they are not taking any such action (e.g. it is hard to complain that tech companies are racist/sexist because they overtly consist of white/asian males when science/engineering at uni is still a white/asian sausage fest). While quotas can be useful, I think we do need to be careful of their use...they need to be time limited and we need to verify when we do have them that they are actually working as intended rather than as seeing them as an end in themselves.

Again to summarize, whilst cutting off Leon here may be warranted (he was also being cowardly by making a claim but not having the guts to own his claim), I think we have to be careful about cutting off debate here too quickly. There are legitimate issues that we as a society should discuss. We don't do ourselves a service if we too easily let people retreating to their filter bubbles. The divisions will just get worse.
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Re: Multiculturalism Ruins Nations

#93 Post by bo_sox48 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 6:13 pm

The discussion is free and open within the marginal guidelines we have set here, but I will butt in with my booming, tyrannical voice to say that other than lowercase-L leon's statements, this thread has generally taken a fair approach in discussing this issue. While there are moments and stances in this thread I disagree with and while some of them may have been in violation of the rules in other parts of this forum, this thread exists in a spot where there is some freedom. Discussion with that in mind is protected in this section.

I also want to point out that, while forum moderation is almost always viewed, and rightfully so, as an interruption of ongoing conversation, in this instance the conversation had already been interrupted. It is working its way back to being on track now.
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Re: Multiculturalism Ruins Nations

#94 Post by New England Fire Squad » Thu Mar 21, 2019 5:38 pm

LeonWalras wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:39 am
Today my country experienced the worst terrorist attack in our history. Those of you who know New Zealand know that we have always been multicultural, and that we have almost no history of terrorist attacks, none at all in my lifetime until now.

I came to this forum to see if anyone was discussing the attack, and instead I find this thread which is effectively a nationalist manifesto. The attack was perpetrated by white nationalists. Nationalism ruins nations.
I'm sorry that the attack happened. I could say more, but now probably isn't the time.

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Re: Multiculturalism Ruins Nations

#95 Post by Carl Tuckerson » Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:16 am

New England Fire Squad wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:27 pm
http://archive.boston.com/news/globe/id ... diversity/ Multicultural and diverse societies are doomed to fail. The more diverse and multicultural a society becomes, the less socially cohesive and more emaciated society becomes. Multicultural neighborhoods have far less trust of their neighbors, have far greater levels on economic inequality(which heightens social tension all the more), Multicultural communities have far higher crime rates than non-multicultural neighborhoods on average across the West, along with far lower levels of civic engagement, up to and including: 1.Voting 2. Giving Less to Charity 3. Volunteering in the Community. This results in a general civil malaise than can even result in strife- one of the most striking things about this study shows that in multicultural communities, members of the same group trust and like even each other much less. Does this seem like a social experiment worth continuing?
I think this is mostly right, but it depends both on the countries under discussion and the cultures within those countries.

I am American, I love America and I love studying her history, but I would be hard-pressed to tell you what America's cultural identity even is. I don't think it truly ever had one unifying identity. Even right after the founding, when everyone was British and almost everyone was Protestant, you had two very prominent factions--the Puritan-descended North and the Cavalier-descended South--who managed to plunge this country into a civil war that remains the bloodiest war in American history to this day.

Maybe this is just from my circumstances of birth (white, mid-30s, middle class family if you can believe that even exists anymore, in a Southern city) but I have never seen this high-trust, economically-balanced, low-crime, highly-engaged community you're referencing. I believe it exists; it's impossible to listen to stories from my parents and now-passed grandparents and not believe they existed at some point in the US, and still persist in some areas today. I think it would be close to ideal. But that idea is frankly alien to me. Hell, though I'm white myself, I don't even really know what it means to be "white"--the label is almost exclusively applied in an attacking way. I know very few white people who ascribe any meaning to being white, and those that do are often reacting to the fact that the crimes of people who look like them but are not meaningfully related to them are attributed to them, rather than proactively asserting any coherent identity of their own. Multiculturalism as you describe it tends to require a host culture and a migrant culture, and I have no idea what the American host culture is supposed to be.
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Re: Multiculturalism Ruins Nations

#96 Post by Randomizer » Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:40 pm

Sure countries that have a dominate single culture do so well:

Hitler's Germany
Current India against minorities and women
Current Pakistan against non-Islamic citizens
Current China against Islamic, Tibetan, Christian minorities
Current Egypt against Coptic Christians

When you aren't part of the dominant group, get ready to be abused and persecuted. The above wasn't even a comprehensive list, but just easily researched examples.

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Re: Multiculturalism Ruins Nations

#97 Post by Carl Tuckerson » Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:37 am

Randomizer wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:40 pm
Sure countries that have a dominate single culture do so well:

Hitler's Germany
Current India against minorities and women
Current Pakistan against non-Islamic citizens
Current China against Islamic, Tibetan, Christian minorities
Current Egypt against Coptic Christians

When you aren't part of the dominant group, get ready to be abused and persecuted. The above wasn't even a comprehensive list, but just easily researched examples.
This is a bit naive. Peoples of different ethnic and religious groups fight. That's how the world has worked since the dawn of mankind. The struggles between Muslim Uighurs and Han Chinese or Buddhist Tibetans and Han Chinese wouldn't go away if China became 30% Uighur Muslim, 30% Buddhist Tibetan, and 40% Han Chinese overnight; the struggles would simply cease to be the one-sided affairs that they currently are, which is good in that minorities have a realistic chance of living their own lives how they wish but bad in that it is much more destabilizing for the society at large.

I feel that you are making the OP's point without realizing it. If ethnic and religious struggle is the way of the world whenever peoples of different groups live in close proximity to each other, isn't the best solution for them to have their own separate territory and autonomy to rule over that territory as they see fit? I'm not talking about "separate but equal" nonsense like the American South used to have, but simply the classic NATION-state model, where the physical and rights boundaries of the state were defined in explicit, conscious contemplation of the identities of the people living within them. That wouldn't work in the United States as I mentioned in my last post, but it would work for very many other places around the world.

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Re: Multiculturalism Ruins Nations

#98 Post by orathaic » Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:12 am

It seems appropriate here to point out the the 'classic Nation-state' model lead directly to the game of diplomacy - via the wonderful experience of two world wars.

Nation states can not be trusted to live peacefully next to each other... Is what the above logic would conclude.

Instead you need to create nations which are tolerant of differences, which are 8nclusives of migrants from neighbouring countries and which respect the strenght of diversity and the importance of basic human rights.

It is also far from true that multiculturalism leads to lower rates of social cohesion. The US is a great example, where - when rates of immigration and diversity were low the social cohesion was at its lowest point.

But I can't find the research right now...
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Re: Multiculturalism Ruins Nations

#99 Post by Octavious » Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:48 pm

orathaic wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:12 am
It seems appropriate here to point out the the 'classic Nation-state' model lead directly to the game of diplomacy - via the wonderful experience of two world wars.

Nation states can not be trusted to live peacefully next to each other... Is what the above logic would conclude.
And yet those same nation states have managed to live alongside each other relatively successfully for the last 3/4 of a century. The obvious conclusion being that your logic is flawed.

There are two stages to the evolution of society. The first stage is where something monumental happens - eg industrialisation means that war between major nations can no longer be profitable. The second stage is where humanity, in its ignorance, carries on with the old ways regardless and suffers a painful lesson in why it no longer works. In theory you can miss out the second stage, as the truth of the first stage is rarely hidden, and yet time and time again society needs to experience the pain of the lesson first hand in order to take it on board.

We were damned lucky we got to experience a little bit of nuclear war in WWII. I've little doubt that a more devastating nuclear war would have happened afterwards if we hadn't.
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Re: Multiculturalism Ruins Nations

#100 Post by Carl Tuckerson » Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:39 pm

I'm glad you brought up nukes, Octavious. In a perverse way, their existence does a lot to check imperialist ambitions of nation states. I feel very confident in stating that if all of the participants in WW1 had nuclear weapons, or protection from powers with nuclear weapons, that no degree of Manifest Destiny esque nationalist warring would push people over the ledge. And not to speak well of the devil, but I don't think even Adolf Hitler would have used nukes in WW2 if he had our experience with them--after all, it doesn't do you much good to annex Eastern Europe for "living space" if you've turned it into a radioactive wasteland, to say nothing of the inevitable retaliation that would leave him ruling an empire of ash and dust.

Basically, since there ARE upsides to nation-state models (heightened internal stability and higher social trust), and since modern tech (particularly nukes) mitigates the major historical downside to a substantial degree, I think there's something to be said in defense of a model that admittedly once failed us greatly, but seems unlikely to me to fail us again.

orathaic, regarding the studies on the US--from what I know of American history, the time when immigration was lowest was during the 1910s to 1965. There was low social trust between whites and blacks, but within their separate communities, trust and social participation was the highest it's ever been in this country's history. The strife you reference was between whites and blacks forced to live in the same cities. If anything I think you are making the point that societies are better off when different groups of people have their own spaces where they can practice their own traditions freely. Again, I don't see how you would do this in the US, so my observations are more theoretical than practical regarding my own country. But there seems to be a pretty easy explanation for this correlation.

You make a very good point about the historical pitfalls of the nation-state though. It is important to have a plan to mitigate those pitfalls. I think Octavious answered the concerns pretty well and have nothing to add that isn't already in this post, but I wanted to give you credit for a good point raised.

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