Religion Rocks

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Fluminator
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Religion Rocks

#1 Post by Fluminator » Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:47 pm

Sure sometimes it's used for bad things, but for the most part it's been a net benefit to earth.
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Re: Religion Rocks

#2 Post by Fluminator » Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:51 pm

Science is also good, but with regards to religion it's had two negative side effects.

1. A lot of non-religious folk think science makes religion outdated.

2. A lot of religious folk try to turn their religion into a scientific process ruining the whole point of it. (And becoming the ever loved fundamentalists of society)

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Re: Religion Rocks

#3 Post by flash2015 » Sat Feb 09, 2019 6:32 pm

It depends what you define as religion, doesn't it?

I would argue that religion fundamentally is to help people find meaning and purpose to life. The metaphysical/supernatural aspect is just a "crutch" in helping us find that meaning. Or do you feel this is a "package deal" - the metaphysical/supernatural cannot be separated from the other parts?

Religions through history have tried to enforce compliance to live a certain way by trying to establish a supernatural cause and effect relationship, the monotheistic religions through ideas of infinite eternal punishment for a finite set of sins (atheists would argue that this is immoral) or the eastern religions through karma (i.e. what you do in this life will affect what happens to you in a future life).

I think at its core religion and science should not have a conflict - religion is trying to explain how to live your life while science explains the natural world. Religion and science only come into conflict when religion tries to explain the world using the supernatural...or scientists get into silly discussions about "proving" there is no God.

I think a problem with "active" atheism is that many will throw the "baby out with the bathwater". If something has now or in the past had a connection to metaphysical/supernatural ideas it can be dismissed without question. I think this is completely wrong-headed. Jordan Peterson is right that the myth/legends/stories that have been created are a method of teaching people about moral reasoning (the continuation of his argument that you can only be moral IF you are religious...and that atheists are only moral because they grew up in a religious society is completely wrongheaded and stupid). Dennis Prager argues that the "eye for an eye" idea was a fundamental societal step for ideas of proportional punishment (of course this idea again conflicts with the ideas of infinite punishment by a $DIETY - he doesn't see the cognitive dissonance). I personally have had this type of discussion with active atheists about Buddhist meditation (#notAllAtheists - Sam Harris a well known atheist, for example, speaks well of meditation and practices it himself). Atheists dismiss it out of hand because it is often taught along with ideas of reincarnation. They can't mentally comprehend that someone could practice Buddhist meditation WITHOUT believing in these supernatural idea. Again, completely wrong-headed thinking.

I believe most of the negative aspects of religion come through the belief that only YOUR church has some direct connection to the supernatural, everyone else is misguided or evil because they don't believe in exactly the same $DIETY or $DIETY_LIST that you do. Whilst this may have been a useful crutch in the past, given how society has progressed and hopefully will continue to progress, I don't believe this is something we should be holding on to for the future.
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Re: Religion Rocks

#4 Post by Octavious » Sun Feb 10, 2019 12:49 am

At the heart of religion is humanity's need for fairness, humanity's need for purpose, and humanity's curiosity. An atheist may argue that these features of humanity explain why we invented religion, a theist that the very fact that we are blessed with such features is evidence of God.

I myself do not believe. I rather like religion, and have a great deal of respect for the good that religious people do. I am also confident that if I did believe I would live a happier and more fulfilled life. No complaints as I am, as it happens, but always room for improvement. But despite being very much in favour of religion, and being of the "type" of person who often is religious, the belief bit simply never happened. Bit of a bugger, really.

One observation that's always puzzled me is that whilst there are numerous people like me who don't believe but would have quite liked to, there doesn't seem to be many of the opposite persuasion. People who believe but who wish that God didn't exist. People who have a falling out with God tend to rapidly move onwards to atheism. I imagine that there's something profound behind this, but I don't know what it might be.

Science in many respects serves humanity rather badly. It is pretty good at the whole curiosity stuff, suffering only because of its modern tendency to leave so many of us behind in the increasingly complex explanations of the universe. In terms of fairness and purpose, science is pretty grim. It teaches us that fairness doesn't exist, that random chance doesn't discriminate between good and evil. Good things do happen to good people, but they also happen to utter bastards. As for purpose, science is even worse. The futility of existence is a hard sell, yet science insists on selling it. In the end, science cheerfully proclaims, it is all for nothing. All your achievements will soon be forgotten, and eventually even the smallest echo of your existence is erased.

I've never been sure how someone who doesn't believe in religion can believe the science of the universe without going mad. It is all the more confusing as I am one of these people. Perhaps I don't really believe the science either, perhaps I am a bit mad, perhaps I am living in some carefully balanced state of denial... Religion would certainly make it all a lot easier and more logical.

Religion rocks.

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Re: Religion Rocks

#5 Post by flash2015 » Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:38 pm

I would agree on the part about religion provide's a need for purpose and for fairness...but why does it have anything to do with curiosity?

Of course, the elephant in the room is that humans cannot fundamentally accept that at some point in the future they will die and may cease to exist. A big part of the belief aspect of religion is to give us "an out" from this uncomfortable basic fact of existence. Of course, people who are religious are not wishing it to be false because it means they need to accept the chance that their existence may end when they die. I too wish my existence won't end when I die (though I am coming to accept it), but then I also wish that I win the lottery. Just because I want it to be true, doesn't mean it is true. I am not going to lie to myself and take "Pascal's wager" - even if there is a $DIETY, how do you know you have chosen the right one?

I don't see why it is so hard to be religious if you really want to be. You just join a church/mosque etc. and just accept what you are being told as the truth. For most people, there is no bolt of light. Most people get their religion from their parents and get indoctrinated from a young age. And even the most devout priest/pastor etc. will say they have doubts that any of it is actually true.

Life isn't fair! That is just a fact whether you want to accept it or not. Bad things happen to good people through no fault of their own. Some people are going to get lucky breaks and be incredibly wealthy, some people are going to work just as hard and get nowhere. Some people are going to grow up with all the advantages while some people grow up in incredible poverty to broken homes. Trying to find rhyme or reason to this leads to people like Reverend Franklin Graham (son of Billi Graham) saying that Katrina targeted new Orleans because of its sinful reputation:

"This is one wicked city, OK? It's known for Mardi Gras, for Satan worship. It's known for sex perversion. It's known for every type of drugs and alcohol and the orgies and all of these things that go on down there in New Orleans. Reverend Graham continued, "There's been a black spiritual cloud over New Orleans for years. They believe God is going to use that storm to bring revival."

This I find utterly despicable and evil. He is reveling in the suffering of others. Ultimately IMHO this is where this sort of belief leads.

Not all the religions are the same of course. From a Buddhist perspective the goal is "to see the world as it is, not as you would like it to be". A goal of meditation is to be able to accept this at a subconscious level. By freeing yourself of these clingings and aversions you can find peace and happiness (i.e. nibbana/nirvana). Unlike other religions, you can take this message away, practice the meditation and ignore the rest.

I don't understand your thinking about science. At its core science doesn't have an opinion. It just tells you how the world is and how we can use that knowledge to make predictions about the future. Yes, your existence may end when you die. This is why you should try and make the most of your life now, rather than hoping for a better future in the afterlife which more likely or not doesn't exist. As the quote says:

“Yesterday is history,
tomorrow is a mystery,
and today is a gift...
that's why they call it the present” - Kung Fu Panda (as well as many other authors)

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Re: Religion Rocks

#6 Post by Octavious » Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:17 pm

flash2015 wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:38 pm
I don't understand your thinking about science. At its core science doesn't have an opinion. It just tells you how the world is and how we can use that knowledge to make predictions about the future.
A lot to talk about, but not much time so I'll focus on this. Of course science is driven by opinion. Science is a manifestation of humanity's curiosity, and as such contains within it all of humanity's bias, its fashions, its strengths and weaknesses. You only have to compare scientific journals written today and compare them to those written 100 or 200 years ago to see how fashions change. Even if you could somehow strip away from the scientific method all the colour of humanity so it becomes a simple tool, a torch that reveals knowledge where you shine it, it is still very much a human who decides where to shine the light.
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Re: Religion Rocks

#7 Post by flash2015 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:58 am

Octavious wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:17 pm
flash2015 wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:38 pm
I don't understand your thinking about science. At its core science doesn't have an opinion. It just tells you how the world is and how we can use that knowledge to make predictions about the future.
A lot to talk about, but not much time so I'll focus on this. Of course science is driven by opinion. Science is a manifestation of humanity's curiosity, and as such contains within it all of humanity's bias, its fashions, its strengths and weaknesses. You only have to compare scientific journals written today and compare them to those written 100 or 200 years ago to see how fashions change. Even if you could somehow strip away from the scientific method all the colour of humanity so it becomes a simple tool, a torch that reveals knowledge where you shine it, it is still very much a human who decides where to shine the light.
I am not exactly sure what you are arguing here. It feels a bit vague. Are you arguing that we could prove the supernatural...but it is because of the bias of science we can't go down this path? Or are you arguing a sort of postmodernist idea that there is no objective view of reality and science is just one opinion out of many and we need to treat all opinions equally. e.g. this could mean "teach the controversy" for evolution...or we should give anti-vaxers an equal platform etc. Help me to understand where you are coming from.

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Re: Religion Rocks

#8 Post by Fluminator » Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:30 am

A lot I could respond to, but I’ll keep it small essay length lol.

Religion might be a bit of a crutch for a lot of people, but a crutch isn't usually a bad thing. The part you're getting at is it's a fake crutch based in imagination to cope and no truth is in it.
But I don’t think it can all be ruled off as "imaginary" partly because it does work really well, and I don’t think anything completely imaginary could work so well. I think it's a different coat of paint on reality than we are used to working with in this culture.

Like for example, the sun rising every morning and setting every evening, and seasons, and years are all natural scientific phenomena we completely understand. Before science humans really had no idea what caused it and created myths to explain it (like the sun was carried on the back of a chariot of a god.)) It’s not factual, but the belief still explained a truth (that the sun always rises and sets) in a way that humans could organize their life around it and still benefit. (Long before we could learn about gravity and orbits, etc.) Science is still sometimes like this (like the model of our atom is definitely wrong, but we don't have a better model that explains everything yet)

In a similar way, religion still gives a worldview framework that might not be 100% true, but when lived out properly, it seems to be close, and trades what can't be understood for imagery that can be understood as a substitute. We’re still waiting on a lot of things for science to explain (and maybe it will explain everything one day) such as purpose, beauty, meaning, morality/ethics (more on this one below since you talked about it a bit), etc. Religion makes attempts to explain those things and I think it’s constantly getting closer to the truth.
Heck, science evolved out of religion, and I don't think it ever would have come before religion. (But if you think I'm wrong on this one, I'm interested in your opinion)

Now, the people who believe in religion only because of hope for a good afterlife is…. not a good thing. Existence is such a complicated thing that science is still a long way away from giving a satisfactory explanation so I don't blame religions' attempts to deal with it (when done genuinely), but I also think most religions are wrong about the afterlife both in the factual sense, and metaphysical sense. However, the fact that existence is still so complicated, I think it’s really jumping the gun to assume we cease to exist when we have so little knowledge. (There exist a lot of anecdotal stories that make me think it’s more complicated than ceasing to exist but who knows)

When I mentioned morality earlier, I see you mentioned Jordan Peterson, and I have seen a couple stuff of his which explains religion stuff in an interesting way which you’re probably already familiar with. I mainly like his ways of explaining different types of truth and how science isn't everything, but he's far from the first person to view religion like this, he kind of just made it more mainstream.

I do believe that if human culture was always atheistic (and by that, I mean only relying on scientific facts) it would have taken much much longer for humans to evolve a morale framework as good as religion.
For most of human history, tribes would spend their existence attacking, raping, and pillaging people of other tribes or nations and it was completely normal. Torture was another common thing humans did without a second thought. Religion is the main reason humans started to look beyond doing that. (And yes, I agree religion was used as an excuse to cause a lot of violence afterward too but that doesn’t change the advances)

I fully believe atheists can live moral lives, but I think we take for granted how much morale knowledge we have that and how much of a head start we have in knowing how to be a good person. A lot of what Jesus teaches (that all people are equal, or to love enemies and not just friends) were revolutionary at the time in that culture. I know less about Buddhism, but it was also probably very revolutionary for it to last as long as it has.

Humans throughout history have been quite garbage, and I don't think atheism would have gotten us out of it for a much longer time.
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Re: Religion Rocks

#9 Post by principians » Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:57 pm

If you are so sure that religion rocks, why have you opened this thread? You don't seem to have doubts, so what do you want to discuss?

Well, sorry if I don't read the whole thread before commenting, but I'd like to try to discuss especific points, so I'll start just with these:

"1. A lot of non-religious folk think science makes religion outdated." Yeah, maybe, maybe we have reasons to think that way :)

"2. A lot of religious folk try to turn their religion into a scientific process ruining the whole point of it. (And becoming the ever loved fundamentalists of society)"
And, what's exactly the point of it?

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Re: Religion Rocks

#10 Post by Fluminator » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:11 pm

Hi principians. If I responded to those, I would mainly just be copy and pasting things from my last post, so I point you to that ;)

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Re: Religion Rocks

#11 Post by principians » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:50 pm

"But I don’t think it can all be ruled off as "imaginary" partly because it does work really well, and I don’t think anything completely imaginary could work so well"
Does work really well? What for? I know it works really well for the pockets of the priests, but what else?

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