Abortion sucks

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Fluminator
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Abortion sucks

#1 Post by Fluminator » Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:08 am

Death is bad
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Re: Abortion sucks

#2 Post by brainbomb » Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:31 am

oof this is sure to change minds
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Re: Abortion sucks

#3 Post by orathaic » Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:08 am

Agreed, we should support all the pregnant people going through this sucky process, with free, Safe, Legal abortions.

That is the only way to ensure minimisation of the harm.
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Re: Abortion sucks

#4 Post by Octavious » Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:10 am

Let's not pretend that abortions are safe. There's a significant risk associated with them that increases depending on how late in pregnancy they occur. Let's also not pretend that they are free. Treatment typically ranges in price from around £400 for an early pill based abortion to well over a thousand for those requiring surgery. That cost can either be shouldered by the patient or by the taxpayer, many of whom will find the use of their money in this way deeply upsetting.

It should be pointed out that there is plenty of precedent for the government spending taxpayers money on things they find deeply upsetting, but that isn't a particularly good reason not to at least keep this in mind.

There are also significant mental health issues that can result from an abortion, as well as significant mental health issues that can result from having an unwanted child. The situation does indeed suck.
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Re: Abortion sucks

#5 Post by orathaic » Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:55 pm

The mental health issues are reduced by supporting the patient. By not making them travel to another state (I feel certain that Irish women in the UK benefitted in some way from the NHS... But maybe it was all private hospitals...), and by guarentee that the pills they take are actually what they say (rather than something ordered online, where you may be anxious that they are really what the 'illegal' website say they are...

Free at the point of use, also means less stress for the patient, as they don't have to worry about not being able to make their next month's rent...

And as for safe, yes, safer than back alley abortions. No medical procedure is perfectly safe, just like walking down the street might result in a trip, a broken hip, severe infection in the hospital... But we can (and in Ireland have) make them as safe as possible. Since the start of this month, Irish (but not Northern Irish aka British) abortions are performed locally - with some exceptions...

And it is worth celebrating this improvement.
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Re: Abortion sucks

#6 Post by Randomizer » Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:38 pm

Let's increase the government welfare system to support all families that can't afford to raise a child and would choose an abortion. Because a child can easily die after being born if there isn't enough money for normal medical care and expenses. For all those pro-lifers, the problems don't stop at birth.

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Re: Abortion sucks

#7 Post by flash2015 » Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:53 pm

Octavious wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:10 am
Let's not pretend that abortions are safe. There's a significant risk associated with them that increases depending on how late in pregnancy they occur. Let's also not pretend that they are free. Treatment typically ranges in price from around £400 for an early pill based abortion to well over a thousand for those requiring surgery. That cost can either be shouldered by the patient or by the taxpayer, many of whom will find the use of their money in this way deeply upsetting.

It should be pointed out that there is plenty of precedent for the government spending taxpayers money on things they find deeply upsetting, but that isn't a particularly good reason not to at least keep this in mind.

There are also significant mental health issues that can result from an abortion, as well as significant mental health issues that can result from having an unwanted child. The situation does indeed suck.
Abortion risky? It has its risks, sure, but it is far far safer than childbirth:

http://healthland.time.com/2012/01/25/w ... hildbirth/

Compared to the costs of childbirth the costs for abortion are also tiny.

You are right though that there is a question whether government should be actually subsidizing this. Same question for contraception too. I think Obama/the democrats were stupid to tie these to Obamacare as it pushed away many religious people who would probably be sympathetic to expanding health care coverage.

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Re: Abortion sucks

#8 Post by Octavious » Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:16 pm

Not safer for the child, certainly.
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Re: Abortion sucks

#9 Post by flash2015 » Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:31 pm

touche

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Re: Abortion sucks

#10 Post by brainbomb » Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:33 pm

I dont think ultra conservatives arent talking about eliminating abortion to replace it with welfare, they mean literally that the child is born and starves to death naturally rather than in a medical procedure

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Re: Abortion sucks

#11 Post by brainbomb » Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:33 pm

because God loves all babies

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Re: Abortion sucks

#12 Post by brainbomb » Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:34 pm

....

just not enough to feed dem

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Re: Abortion sucks

#13 Post by Octavious » Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:06 pm

I confess I don't know much about the American system. Do many babies starve to death in the USA?

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Re: Abortion sucks

#14 Post by brainbomb » Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:08 pm

without welfare? only one way to find out right?

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Re: Abortion sucks

#15 Post by Fluminator » Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:24 pm

I don't think being conservative or liberal has anything to do with whether they think it's justified to kill something they view as a baby.
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Re: Abortion sucks

#16 Post by Octavious » Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:30 pm

So the number of babies starving to death in the USA is effectively nil. Good to know. We wouldn't want to waste our time debating things that have no basis in reality other than brainbomb's imagination :).

With regards to the issue of funding, is there any mileage in the concept of an emergency medical loan? The government pays the immediate cost and is paid back over a period of months or years as a percentage of wages over a certain level?

Let's use the British students loan system as a model. The patient gets an abortion costing $1500 paid for by a government loan. This sum gains interest at the base rate, and is paid off monthly as an additional 5-10% tax on all income earned over $15,000. Obviously these figures are largely plucked out of a hat, but you get the idea.

The same system could be expanded into other areas of healthcare, come to think of it.
Last edited by Octavious on Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Abortion sucks

#17 Post by Octavious » Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:31 pm

Posted in error*

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Re: Abortion sucks

#18 Post by Fluminator » Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:40 pm

I might have started this thread a little bit in a trolly fashion, but this is really my biggest stumbling block to the progressive movement. I like a lot of things regarding the progressive movement. But I still can't get over the push for killing human life for the convenience of other human life.
The only responses I usually get is I'm sexist (even though I refuse to do anything that would put a woman in that situation where a pregnancy would be a huge inconvenience) (even though there are loads of women who are pro-life) (even though abortion is one of the more sexist procedures in terms of what gender they target in the womb). So claims of sexism isn't a good argument for me.

Brain, if I'm correct, your argument is the killing of human life is justified because there exists a hypothetical country where there is no welfare which might result in them starving instead if they don't get aborted?
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Re: Abortion sucks

#19 Post by orathaic » Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:41 pm

Octavious wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:30 pm
So the number of babies starving to death in the USA is effectively nil. Good to know. We wouldn't want to waste our time debating things that have no basis in reality other than brainbomb's imagination :).
There does exist a country where hundreds of thousands grow up in poverty, poor nutrition leads to poor cognitive development. Basically brains don't develop without good nutrition.

There are a huge number of factors which can be seen linked to poverty, but the causation is difficult to prove. Simply put, more mouths to feed and less money person to feed them leads to a vicious poverty circle. Poor cognition is related to poor academic performance, which leads to poor outcomes and increased chances of criminality, low wages, and more children raised in poverty.

In these circumstances a mother of two who is already struggling to raise her children knows that having a third child will be bad for them, and thus may see abortion as the optimal solution - because she is thinking of her children. Now the 'better welfare' argument is one which criticise the anti-woman movement's typical political position to make things even harder for those in poverty; to hold every individual responcible for their own lot in life (even if they never had the same opportunities as their parents never fully developed cognitively).

It is a valid criticism.

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Re: Abortion sucks

#20 Post by orathaic » Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:56 pm

Fluminator wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:40 pm
I might have started this thread a little bit in a trolly fashion, but this is really my biggest stumbling block to the progressive movement. I like a lot of things regarding the progressive movement. But I still can't get over the push for killing human life for the convenience of other human life.
The only responses I usually get is I'm sexist (even though I refuse to do anything that would put a woman in that situation where a pregnancy would be a huge inconvenience) (even though there are loads of women who are pro-life) (even though abortion is one of the more sexist procedures in terms of what gender they target in the womb). So claims of sexism isn't a good argument for me.
The sexism claim is fairly basic. Women not having control over their reproductive organs makes them unequal. The evidence again is clear when you look at the other policies pushed by the anti-woman movement. They want to teach abstinence only education (which results in a higher rate of unwanted/crisis pregnancies) they want to restrict access to contraception, and they want to place the blame on pregnant women for having sex (ignoring the occurance of rape entirely). This shaming of women's sexuality is very anti-woman, and nowhere in the world (never mind the US) do you see men's sexuality being treated the same way.

Opposing abortion is only one arrow in their quiver. But it is the strongest one, because the idea of taking a life is very emotive (especially an innocent one). I'm not sure you will find gender discrimination (ie who gets aborted) in the US, though it happens in other parts of the world. I don't see the fact that female embryos are aborted in India is relevant to the US. I might equally say that some children starve to death in Africa (and if they are really pro-life they would go out and undo the harmful trading practices and exploitation which causes this).

The counter point is merely that an embryo is not a life. And this was the official position of Christianity for thousands of years. Mostly because miscarriages (today) occur in ~40% of pregnancies, but without modern technology you can't tell is a 10 week pregnancy is actually alive in any meaningful sense.

So you can ask the question, 'where would I personally draw the line', and then decide that you are such an omniscience line drawer that it should be applicable to everyone. Or you can take the Pro-choice logic, and say, each person must take responcibility for their own decision. Which happens to protect victims of rape, along with all kinds of pregnant people whose circumstances you're not aware of.

And I would not, as Ireland has only this month begun to administer abortions, I have grown up with the reality that the anti-woman movement would go so far as to force a raped teenager to throw herself down a stairs in the misguided belief that mental health doesn't really count - because a dead teenager who never gives birth is somehow 'pro-life'. And the a women who really wants a child, but whose fetus has developed a fatal abnormality is refused an abortion, develops sepsis and actually dies.

Unfortunately, there are too many stories like these.
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