Brexit

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orathaic
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Re: Brexit

#21 Post by orathaic » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:00 pm

TrPrado wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:56 pm
“British” and “Britain” come from the name of the British Isles as a collective
Brittany is a place in France, also known as Lesser Britain, to your Greater Britain.

But geography and logic have no place in a discussion of ethnicity, identity and historical narrative. Emotion will always trump logic on these issues.

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Re: Brexit

#22 Post by Octavious » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:10 pm

That's an interesting use of words. "About 3 in 8 people died or emigrated". The difference between dying and emigrating is massive, and lumping them together seems a tad odd.

What is more true of the English than of the other nations of the British Archipelago ( ;-) ) is that we are more of mix of ancestry. You look at my family history and you find Irish who left because of the famine, you find Scots forced out in the clearings, and you find those who did the clearing. I'm confident that I have ancestors on both sides of every struggle on these islands. It makes identifying with any particular side rather tricky. Still, as I'm descended from the Irish forced out and you from those who stayed I'm claiming the moral high ground :).

Fun as this is, we're deviating from the topic a tad.
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Re: Brexit

#23 Post by TrPrado » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:23 pm

I’d say it’s much more like referring to Mexico as American.

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Re: Brexit

#24 Post by orathaic » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:31 pm

Octavious, if only 1 million died, does that make it better. The narrative told to irish kids remains, misleading or not. That population lose was one which put this island's economy into a downward spiral, the population continued to drop to less than 4 million (in the 1960s). [EDIT: I'm not sure what all island population was in the 60s, I know the republics started to recover then, 120 years after the famine]

That is the main thrust of my argument. Not that the British are guilty of genocide (though there are arguments for that, particularly in India, in similar famine policies) but that economic policies devestated this island. Poverty lead to emigration, emigration lead to a reduction in demand, lower demand leads to less work, which leads to poverty... The spiral continued for over 100 years.

I claim no moral stake in this. Merely why certain emotions are brought when talking about Irish vs British identity. I have deviated from my point about the DUP's Irishness. The narrative I've spelt out is one which makes an identity.

Canadians identify as different from Americans because of the identity forged in the war of 1812, when they fought off the US. Americans are not British and celebrate that every year in their independence day. The Irish.

And you are entirely right, dna analysis shows how much mining has gone on over the past 2000 year one these islands. But your dna heritage is much harder to use to form a cohesive identity from which to unify a group (especially when religion has been used as a political tool to divide our common genetics... Don't get me started on the pope).
Last edited by orathaic on Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

orathaic
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Re: Brexit

#25 Post by orathaic » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:33 pm

TrPrado wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:23 pm
I’d say it’s much more like referring to Mexico as American.
Doesn't matter who it is more like, emotion will determine people's attitude over logic. My argument about Americans could be the most logically thought out in the world. And it will still be ignored by the vast majority of USAians.

orathaic
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Re: Brexit

#26 Post by orathaic » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:38 pm

*mixing, of dna, not mining. [and why can't I edit that post again to fix the typos...]

orathaic
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Re: Brexit

#27 Post by orathaic » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:54 pm

OK, so things have moved on. May wins the no confidence vote.

What next? Corbyn fights for a second referendum? May asks the EU for an extention to article 50? The EU refuses to re-open negotiations?

Any predictions?

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Re: Brexit

#28 Post by Octavious » Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:27 pm

If the EU have any sense they'll make extending article 50 conditional on there either being an election or referendum or something of that magnitude. Extending it just so that Parliament can faff for a few more months doesn't seem likely.

If May tries to push through the no deal option then enough Tories will jump ship that a no confidence vote will succeed, so that option is closed.

If she throws a bone to Labour in the form of an ultra-soft Brexit she may get Labour to support it, but it will mean betraying what she believes the will of the people to be, and could very well destroy the Conservatives in the process, so I can't see it happening.

An extension to article 50 followed by a 2nd referendum is the only way forward I can see that is workable.

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Re: Brexit

#29 Post by orathaic » Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:07 am

Octavious wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:11 am
Really? Clearly they are British, but I never knew that whether or not they were Irish was part of the debate. You do do things strangely on your side of the sea.
FYI
https://scontent-dub4-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/ ... e=5CB704FC

This is the level of denial that you get. No, this Island doesn't exist...

But anyhow. My point remains, calling them Irish is probably offensive to many.

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Re: Brexit

#30 Post by Octavious » Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:18 am

orathaic wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:07 am
My point remains, calling them Irish is probably offensive to many.
Maybe so, but the sort of person who'd find it offensive is likely the same sort of person I don't give a damn about offending, and a fair few who I may well actually enjoy offending, so all is good :-)
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