Government Shutdown

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Octavious
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Re: Government Shutdown

#61 Post by Octavious » Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:11 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:01 pm
Octavious wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:40 pm
Plenty of people have argued that a wall will help, and it's certainly been an extremely popular policy in Europe. A policy which has enjoyed some degree of success.
Are you talking about the Berlin wall? That was hardly popular. If you're not, which European countries have recently built border walls?
It's been well documented for some time, Jamie. I can't believe you're unaware of it.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 6.html?amp

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Re: Government Shutdown

#62 Post by Jamiet99uk » Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:36 pm

I was not aware of any of this other than the Spanish one. This disgusts me.

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Re: Government Shutdown

#63 Post by orathaic » Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:48 pm

Octavious wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:11 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:01 pm
Octavious wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:40 pm
Plenty of people have argued that a wall will help, and it's certainly been an extremely popular policy in Europe. A policy which has enjoyed some degree of success.
Are you talking about the Berlin wall? That was hardly popular. If you're not, which European countries have recently built border walls?
It's been well documented for some time, Jamie. I can't believe you're unaware of it.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 6.html?amp
Not well publicised. There are many EU governments taking action to deter migrants, mostly from Syria, Libya, and sub-saharan Africa.

Notably poor and unstable countries, mostly in their current state due to European interference.

I imagine on of the most significant places in need of a fence is in the Spanish exclave in Morocco. At least two small towns which Spain still claims - thus if you can cross the fence to get into the exclave (without needing to cross the Mediterranean) you can apply for asylum in Spain. Not something the Spanish govt really wants to deal with. Much cheaper for them to build a horrible fence.
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Re: Government Shutdown

#64 Post by Jamiet99uk » Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:49 pm

Rather than saying "how can we keep these people out of Europe?" we should ask "why are they so desperate to come here?"

To find the answer to that question you only need to look at where they are coming from.

The #1 country of origin of people seeking asylum in Europe between 2014 and 2018 was Syria. The #2 country of origin was Iraq.

They are coming here because their homelands have been bombed, destroyed, obliterated, thanks to imperialist military misadventures that the UK, USA and other Western nations have participated in.

Our governments have destroyed their homes. Why should they not come here? It is our fault.
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Re: Government Shutdown

#65 Post by Octavious » Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:04 pm

Syria's hell is primarily of its own making. A hell that Britain and the West, at the urging of the pacifist left in this country, did nothing to remedy. The massive death and suffering in Syria is what non-interventionism looks like.
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Re: Government Shutdown

#66 Post by ND » Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:05 pm

crime committed by illegal aliens: https://www.heritage.org/immigration/co ... l-activity

All crime committed by illegal aliens is disproportionate for the simple reason that they are not supposed to be here.

Illegal aliens are a drain on social services. They don't pay taxes yet they still get social services such as emergency room, police protection, fire fighters, etc, etc. Who has to pay for these illegal aliens to get these services? Oh, legal immigrants who have been naturalized and of course natural born citizens.

Again, we need deportations, the wall, and a strict immigration system.

If the wall can save one American life then it is worth it.

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Re: Government Shutdown

#67 Post by ND » Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:09 pm

People who actually work are sick of getting ripped off to pay for people who aren't supposed to be here. That's why we elected Trump.

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Re: Government Shutdown

#68 Post by orathaic » Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:37 pm

ND wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:05 pm
Illegal aliens are a drain on social services. They don't pay taxes yet they still get social services such as emergency room, police protection, fire fighters, etc, etc. Who has to pay for these illegal aliens to get these services? Oh, legal immigrants who have been naturalized and of course natural born citizens.

Again, we need deportations, the wall, and a strict immigration system.

If the wall can save one American life then it is worth it.
ND wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:09 pm
People who actually work are sick of getting ripped off to pay for people who aren't supposed to be here. That's why we elected Trump.
People who actually work. OK, so are you implying the illigal immigrants don't work?

I'm confused, I can imagine one of two scenarios
1) they are super wealthy, and they have never worked a day in their lives, their investments make lots of money, but they don't pay tax due to loopholes. This seems plausible, kinda like Trump, playing at being President, hardly what I would call working...

Or
2) they are poor, and will work any job they can get. That means mostly farm labour, and being paid less than minimum wage - it also means they would pay sales tax on anything the buy, right?

So in scenario 2, they do pay some tax, and they do work hard. How are they any different to the American workers?

Separately, you seem to have an issue with them going to emergency rooms and benefiting from police work. Hypothetically, if I (a white European) were to visit the US as a tourist, and get into a car accident, then I would be treated in an emergency room, and benefit from exactly the hard work of others you are railing against. (never mind the police work which makes the US relatively safe and stable, that I would consider visiting in the first place).

How os this scenario any different? Do you have the same objection? I would never have paid any income tax in the US, only sales tax on things I might purchase... Why should I get special treatment in your emergency rooms?

And how is that different from an illegal immigrant?

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Re: Government Shutdown

#69 Post by orathaic » Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:40 pm

ND wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:09 pm
People who actually work are sick of getting ripped off to pay for people who aren't supposed to be here. That's why we elected Trump.
And yes, getting ripped off, by the rich and powerful, like Trump, that's why Bernie Sanders was running. To Make America Fairer (I won't say again, because America was founded on the principle that 'All men are created equal', except if the happen to be black, and let's not even pretend women exist...)

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Re: Government Shutdown

#70 Post by orathaic » Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:53 pm

And to address your point about crime, I'm just going to have to quote the same article:
Most studies in the U.S. have found lower crime rates among immigrants than among non-immigrants, and that higher concentrations of immigrants are associated with lower crime rates.[1][174][175][176][177][178][179][180][181][182][183][184][185][186][187][188][189][190][191][192][193][194][195][196][excessive citations] These findings contradict popular perceptions that immigration increases crime.[1][197]

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Re: Government Shutdown

#71 Post by TrPrado » Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:08 am

It seems the Senate gave preference to funding the government and making border security a separate issue.

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Re: Government Shutdown

#72 Post by ND » Fri Jan 25, 2019 1:40 am

A few points:

1) "People who actually work. OK, so are you implying the illegal immigrants don't work?"

Answer: In some cases and instances illegal aliens can qualify for and receive welfare. In these cases they don't work, are here illegally, yet taxpayers have to pay for them. Your hypothetical #1 doesn't happen to my knowledge. Your hypothetical #2 is more likely than not (apart from my answer which according to one study happens 63% of the time). But, in either event, since they have no social security number and are here illegally they don't pay federal income taxes and may only have to pay some state sales taxes (in states that have a sales tax).

In your #2 how are they different from American workers? American workers have to pay the federal income tax because we have a social security number and they don't. It's a lot more than a state 'sales tax' and some states don't even do that.

I would say that someone visiting the United States on a legal visa or for a trip with a passport should be eligible for emergency services due to them being a guest in the country. Someone who forcibly violates United States law and breaks into our country and breaks our law should not be eligible for any service whatsoever. Its a crime.

@Orathaic: Your second point is sad. I'm sorry you think that way. No, we aren't getting ripped off by Trump. He is actually trying to help people. We are getting ripped off by people coming here illegally and our political class like the Bushes, Clintons, and Bernies who for years have sold us out internationally and profited on the backs of American taxpayers. Trump is the first person to try and stop that. And yeah all Men and Women regardless of color and creed are equal in the United States. Jesus Christ.

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Re: Government Shutdown

#73 Post by Randomizer » Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:47 am

@ND

Regarding 1)
Maybe you are too young to remember all the presidential elections and tax reform over company CEOs paying less in taxes than their secretaries. It has been a real reported result that those in the highest tax bracket pay less in taxes compared to that tax rate by using tax shelters and loop holes. Look at some of the more famous tax dodgers who got caught:

http://content.time.com/time/specials/p ... 17,00.html

Although some like the Trump family did it more legally, his whole family is now being investigated for what Howard Trump did.

However plenty of illegal immigrants that are being paid legally do pay taxes here. Some under foreign identification numbers and others using fake social security numbers. Arizona has had several cases where the employers entered fake social security numbers to make it look like they employed legal workers. In these cases they are paying into a system with withheld taxes (FICA) where they won't get future benefits.

Go after the employers like Trump that benefit from hiring illegal immigrants:

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump- ... gal-aliens

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... surprised/
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Re: Government Shutdown

#74 Post by ND » Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:50 am

I'm probably older than you and no there's no way that more pay taxes then do not lol

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Re: Government Shutdown

#75 Post by Jamiet99uk » Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:51 am

Octavious wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:04 pm
Syria's hell is primarily of its own making. A hell that Britain and the West, at the urging of the pacifist left in this country, did nothing to remedy. The massive death and suffering in Syria is what non-interventionism looks like.
You think we have not been intervening in Syria? What planet do you live on?
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Re: Government Shutdown

#76 Post by flash2015 » Fri Jan 25, 2019 1:23 pm

ND wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:05 pm
crime committed by illegal aliens: https://www.heritage.org/immigration/co ... l-activity

All crime committed by illegal aliens is disproportionate for the simple reason that they are not supposed to be here.

Illegal aliens are a drain on social services. They don't pay taxes yet they still get social services such as emergency room, police protection, fire fighters, etc, etc. Who has to pay for these illegal aliens to get these services? Oh, legal immigrants who have been naturalized and of course natural born citizens.

Again, we need deportations, the wall, and a strict immigration system.

If the wall can save one American life then it is worth it.
It is interesting to see a different perspective on the statistics and certainly more research needs to be done but the article is being downright deceptive and just pandering to its readership when it tries to suggest federal prison numbers as a proxy for crime as a whole. Federal prisons make up a tiny minority of total people incarcerated (<10%):

https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2018.html

And when you look at the categories for federal prisons, two big categories are immigration (most likely everyone there is an illegal immigrant) and drugs, both much more likely to come from immigrants. Another website indicates how a drug crime can become a federal crime:

https://www.joffefederaldefense.com/whe ... e-federal/

To summarise:

a federal informant named you
a federal officer made your arrest
the crime occurred on federal property
the crime involved crossing state lines or out of the country
the catch-all category.

Again these categories make it all more likely for an immigrant drug offender to be caught by federal vs state drug laws.

And it is a silly argument to forget proportionality and say **any** crime made by an immigrant is disproportionate. Crime rate rather than total crime is the only thing that matters! e.g. as an extreme example, it is like saying that if one city of 10,000 people has 10 murders per year and a second city of 10,000,000 people a year has 20 murders per year, that the second city is less safe, which is completely and utterly wrong.

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Re: Government Shutdown

#77 Post by orathaic » Fri Jan 25, 2019 1:54 pm

@ND, you say Trump is trying to help, when I clearly remember him saying Mexico 🇲🇽 would pay for the wall, like he literally said they would send a cheque.

So he is currently hurting the American people with a govt shutdown because he lied about Mexico paying for the wall, and now wants US taxpayers to pick up the tab.

I don't know how income tax works in the US but here the employer deducts it at source (unless you are self-employed), so if the employer isn't collecting the right taxes, they are at fault, not the employee. I don't know, but this sounds like what randomizer said is happening.

Lastly, what case allows undocumented migrants to access welfare? And if that is the case in some local states, then it is a CHOICE of the local govt, and the tax payers in those states should be free to make that cú oice if they want. It is not the fault of 'illegal' immigrants.

@Syria, it has mostly been Russia, Iran, and Saudi Arabia interfering, and they deserve every bit as much criticism as the UK/US would have gotten from me. Though if I am critical of the UK, citizens there might be able to change it, I doubt my voice will have much impact on the House of Saud, or Iranian regime.

@Crime,just using prison stats seems ludicrous to begin with. Compare the actual crime rate. Young male migrants are probably more likely to commit crimes than any other age/gender combination, but the same is true of young male non-migrsnts.

Lastly, @ND if all are created equal, why not simply issue social security numbers to all migrants, and treat them as equals?

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Re: Government Shutdown

#78 Post by flash2015 » Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:16 pm

Just to emphasize how deceptive again how deceptive those federal incarceration statistics are, here is another study by those "commies" at the Cato institute (/sarcasm) showing that the total incarceration rate for illegal immigrants is 1/2 that of native born residents (for legal immigrants it is about 1/5):

https://www.cato.org/publications/immig ... ies-origin

I tend to like the cato institute studies. Even though I often don't agree with their conclusions, they stick to the facts and their arguments are logical. Here is another fact based analysis going into detail about why the wall won't work:

https://www.cato.org/publications/comme ... -wont-work
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Re: Government Shutdown

#79 Post by TrPrado » Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:43 pm

Trump has agreed to open the government for three weeks and continue negotiating the border separately.

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Re: Government Shutdown

#80 Post by flash2015 » Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:11 pm

TrPrado wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:43 pm
Trump has agreed to open the government for three weeks and continue negotiating the border separately.
I was going to give you a +1 but then you would have been ahead of me... :razz:
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