Lock Her Up

Any political discussion should go here. This subforum will be moderated differently than other forums.
Forum rules
1.) No personal threats.
2.) No doxxing/revealing personal information.
3.) No spam.
4.) No circumventing press restrictions.
5.) No racism, sexism, homophobia, or derogatory posts.
Message
Author
Randomizer
Posts: 232
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:04 am
Karma: 62

Lock Her Up

#1 Post by Randomizer » Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:24 am

https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/20/politics ... index.html

Crooked Ivanka caught using private email account for government emails. Trump defends her with this isn't like Hillary Clinton. It's not, because it's worse in that it wasn't a private server that the user controls, but another company's server where their employees can look at the emails. Like there haven't been cases of employees looking at famous people's accounts.

But what do you expect from Donald Trump that still uses his unsecured unencrypted cell phones for official business and calls to foreign leaders.
2

ND
Posts: 1052
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:49 pm
Karma: 169

Re: Lock Her Up

#2 Post by ND » Tue Nov 27, 2018 3:22 am

Dumb. I mean everything she did was not classified. The reason why Hillary should be investigated and locked up is because she sent classified emails from a private account. So, your whole point is moot and to boot you posted an extremely biased source (CNN). Fail.
3

Randomizer
Posts: 232
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:04 am
Karma: 62

Re: Lock Her Up

#3 Post by Randomizer » Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:57 pm

Hillary claimed like Trump is that there was no classified material. Until the FBI investigates and confirms this statement we have no proof. Because we all know how unreliable Trump statements are and subject to change.

ND
Posts: 1052
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:49 pm
Karma: 169

Re: Lock Her Up

#4 Post by ND » Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:04 pm

Well Hillary is a list and Trump isn't. I would trust him NY day of the week over Hillary.

Jamiet99uk
Posts: 3639
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:42 pm
Location: Durham, UK
Karma: 620
Contact:

Re: Lock Her Up

#5 Post by Jamiet99uk » Tue Nov 27, 2018 7:41 pm

ND wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:04 pm
Well Hillary is a list and Trump isn't. I would trust him NY day of the week over Hillary.
So you actually admit that you automatically assume those on your side are beyond reproach, and those you don't agree with are guilty until proven innocent.

You have no integrity whatsoever.

ND
Posts: 1052
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:49 pm
Karma: 169

Re: Lock Her Up

#6 Post by ND » Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:57 pm

I don't even remember what I was trying to type earlier. OH, it was "hillary is a liar and Trump isn't" somehow that corrected to 'a list' I guess google doesn't want me to type Hillary is a liar. Sorry for that mistake.

Jamiet99uk
Posts: 3639
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:42 pm
Location: Durham, UK
Karma: 620
Contact:

Re: Lock Her Up

#7 Post by Jamiet99uk » Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:22 pm

You're sick, ND.

ND
Posts: 1052
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:49 pm
Karma: 169

Re: Lock Her Up

#8 Post by ND » Thu Nov 29, 2018 4:32 pm

Good one

ksako8
Posts: 84
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2017 10:26 am
Karma: 30

Re: Lock Her Up

#9 Post by ksako8 » Sat Dec 01, 2018 7:09 am

ND, Trump is a proven liar. If you can't even admit that, you are beyond any reason.
3

Octavious
Posts: 754
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:16 pm
Location: The Five Valleys, Gloucestershire
Karma: 518
Contact:

Re: Lock Her Up

#10 Post by Octavious » Sat Dec 01, 2018 2:52 pm

ksako, in what sense is Trump unique in this? All politicians, and all people lie. I'd argue quite strongly that a person incapable of lying would make an incredibly poor politician.

It is entirely possible, on the other hand, for ND to believe that Trump has been honest with him. Indeed, considering how closely Trump and NDs political opinions seem aligned, this may well be accurate.

Honesty is heavily dependent on your point of view. A person who considers himself perfectly honest may say that Columbus discovered America. An equally honest person with a different point of view may say not as there were already people there, and a more literally minded honest chap will say it's impossible as there's no cover big enough to conceal the Americas.
3

ND
Posts: 1052
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:49 pm
Karma: 169

Re: Lock Her Up

#11 Post by ND » Sat Dec 01, 2018 6:39 pm

I agree 100% with what Octavious just said.

ksako8
Posts: 84
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2017 10:26 am
Karma: 30

Re: Lock Her Up

#12 Post by ksako8 » Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:29 pm

@Octavious
ND stated that Hillary is a liar ( I agree ) and Trump is not. That last part is obviously false.
BTW: Trump lies a lot more than most other politicians do.

Greg_the_republican
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:10 pm
Location: Texas
Karma: 4

Re: Lock Her Up

#13 Post by Greg_the_republican » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:37 pm

Pretty much all politicians lie in order to push their agendas and/or gain supporters. That’s just the way things are nowadays.

flash2015
Posts: 1227
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:55 pm
Location: Planet Earth
Karma: 186

Re: Lock Her Up

#14 Post by flash2015 » Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:21 am

Octavious wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 2:52 pm
ksako, in what sense is Trump unique in this? All politicians, and all people lie. I'd argue quite strongly that a person incapable of lying would make an incredibly poor politician.

It is entirely possible, on the other hand, for ND to believe that Trump has been honest with him. Indeed, considering how closely Trump and NDs political opinions seem aligned, this may well be accurate.

Honesty is heavily dependent on your point of view. A person who considers himself perfectly honest may say that Columbus discovered America. An equally honest person with a different point of view may say not as there were already people there, and a more literally minded honest chap will say it's impossible as there's no cover big enough to conceal the Americas.
Octavious, are you a closet postmodernist or something? Are you trying to say that there is no such thing as objective facts?

Sure, Trump is not unique in lying...but he takes it to a whole new level. He will tell the most blatant of lies (e.g. biggest inauguration crowd, muslims in NJ cheering from the rooftops on 9/11 etc.) and keep on repeating them even when they are most obviously false. In the past presidents would try to "keep above the fray" of conspiracies and negative BS. Now Trump is the fray. He repeats conspiracy theories and creates his own. He hires media advisors which do the same (e.g. Bowling Green massacre, lest we forget).

I really don't understand how you can equate Trump with past politicians without being willfully blind.

TrPrado
Site Moderator
Site Moderator
Posts: 648
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:22 pm
Location: OOOOOOKLAHOMA WHERE THE WIND COMES SWEEPING DOWN THE PLAIN
Karma: 168
Contact:

Re: Lock Her Up

#15 Post by TrPrado » Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:59 am

What I gathered was an argument that honesty may very well be divorced from fact, not that fact simply is not a thing.

flash2015
Posts: 1227
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:55 pm
Location: Planet Earth
Karma: 186

Re: Lock Her Up

#16 Post by flash2015 » Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:55 am

TrPrado wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:59 am
What I gathered was an argument that honesty may very well be divorced from fact, not that fact simply is not a thing.
Perhaps, but I thought the last paragraph went further and suggested that Trump isn't lying, he is just giving an alternative perspective of the facts, just like his hypothetical question about who discovered the Americas.

Octavious
Posts: 754
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:16 pm
Location: The Five Valleys, Gloucestershire
Karma: 518
Contact:

Re: Lock Her Up

#17 Post by Octavious » Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:54 am

@flash

It's about priorities, about what you consider to be important. From my perspective as a foreigner observing the US, what I consider important varies significantly from a native Yank. Regarding post Brexit trade deals Trump has been rather more open and honest than our own politicians, although you'd be hard pressed to identify an actual lie. On climate change I strongly disagree with Trump's policies, but I've never been in any doubt what those policies are. He has pulled out of the truly awful Iran deal whilst European politicians continued to pretend it was worth having. He has been extremely lenient with Saudi Arabia because of US business interests, which is what all US Presidents do, but he's the only one I recall being open about it.

Look at Obama, and you see repeated lies told about Guantanamo Bay closing. You see lies told about Syrian red lines that were crossed and then conveniently forgotten. Those lies stick firmly in my mind because they were about things that matter to me. As for how big an inauguration was, I couldn't care less. Trump telling a lie about that will be as meaningful as someone saying good morning when it clearly isn't. Bothered I am not.

What Trump is exceptionally good at is identifying what really matters to people. To the people that matter to Trump, he is very careful not to appear dishonest. To the people who don't matter to Trump, he couldn't care less, and at times seems to deliberately taunt.
2

ND
Posts: 1052
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:49 pm
Karma: 169

Re: Lock Her Up

#18 Post by ND » Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:01 pm

flash2015 wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:21 am
Octavious wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 2:52 pm
ksako, in what sense is Trump unique in this? All politicians, and all people lie. I'd argue quite strongly that a person incapable of lying would make an incredibly poor politician.

It is entirely possible, on the other hand, for ND to believe that Trump has been honest with him. Indeed, considering how closely Trump and NDs political opinions seem aligned, this may well be accurate.

Honesty is heavily dependent on your point of view. A person who considers himself perfectly honest may say that Columbus discovered America. An equally honest person with a different point of view may say not as there were already people there, and a more literally minded honest chap will say it's impossible as there's no cover big enough to conceal the Americas.
Octavious, are you a closet postmodernist or something? Are you trying to say that there is no such thing as objective facts?

Sure, Trump is not unique in lying...but he takes it to a whole new level. He will tell the most blatant of lies (e.g. biggest inauguration crowd, muslims in NJ cheering from the rooftops on 9/11 etc.) and keep on repeating them even when they are most obviously false. In the past presidents would try to "keep above the fray" of conspiracies and negative BS. Now Trump is the fray. He repeats conspiracy theories and creates his own. He hires media advisors which do the same (e.g. Bowling Green massacre, lest we forget).

I really don't understand how you can equate Trump with past politicians without being willfully blind.
Let's dissect this.
1. His crowd probably was the biggest ever. Perhaps not in person on the national mall, but when you factor in streaming services.. yes it was. Like, I was planning on going, but it was raining and I didn't want to drive to D.C. so I livestreamed it. So, yeah he is telling the truth on that point.

2. Not sure about the muslims in NJ cheering during 9/11. It's possible because I do remember when I was young hearing something about that. Not sure, so that's a 50/50 I think. If he is lying it's not intentional. He probably just mixed up where they were cheering because there is documented evidence that some people in the Middle East did cheer the attacks. I remember that footage for sure.

3. Your last point isn't about a 'lie' it's about President's entering the fray. Well, that has always happened. In a modern context it started with Obama who was an extreme partisan that routinely insulted and demeaned Republicans. Obama was way worse then Trump in this regard.

4. Conspiracy theories? Not sure where you are going with that one.
1

flash2015
Posts: 1227
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:55 pm
Location: Planet Earth
Karma: 186

Re: Lock Her Up

#19 Post by flash2015 » Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:58 am

Octavious wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:54 am
@flash

It's about priorities, about what you consider to be important. From my perspective as a foreigner observing the US, what I consider important varies significantly from a native Yank. Regarding post Brexit trade deals Trump has been rather more open and honest than our own politicians, although you'd be hard pressed to identify an actual lie. On climate change I strongly disagree with Trump's policies, but I've never been in any doubt what those policies are. He has pulled out of the truly awful Iran deal whilst European politicians continued to pretend it was worth having. He has been extremely lenient with Saudi Arabia because of US business interests, which is what all US Presidents do, but he's the only one I recall being open about it.

Look at Obama, and you see repeated lies told about Guantanamo Bay closing. You see lies told about Syrian red lines that were crossed and then conveniently forgotten. Those lies stick firmly in my mind because they were about things that matter to me. As for how big an inauguration was, I couldn't care less. Trump telling a lie about that will be as meaningful as someone saying good morning when it clearly isn't. Bothered I am not.

What Trump is exceptionally good at is identifying what really matters to people. To the people that matter to Trump, he is very careful not to appear dishonest. To the people who don't matter to Trump, he couldn't care less, and at times seems to deliberately taunt.
It is a question of how you define "honesty". It seems like you are defining honesty as telling people what they want to hear. Like Trump going and telling people in the midwest that their manufacturing jobs were lost only because of bad trade deals...or telling his supporters that immigrants are either rapists/murderers or terrorists. And all the solutions to all the US's problems are simple but the "global elites" are leading us astray. I don't call that honesty. I call that pandering.

Who do you think is lying to you exactly on Brexit? Making Brexit actually happen is going to be incredibly hard - even though I probably don't see eye to eye with many conservative politicians, I don't envy the position May and her team are in. It is easy to throw stones here when you have very little skin in the game (like Trump). Are you again saying the only people truthful here are the ones with the easy answers?

I can agree to disagree with you on the Iran thing so I won't bring that up here. On the Saudi Arabia thing, he is not only prioritizing business interests over human rights but he is lying about Mohammed bin Salman's involvement in the whole affair directly contradicting what US intelligence has told him and congress. On climate change, it isn't just a different policy but Trump goes off into conspiracy land and says that climate change is all a Chinese plot to make the US less competitive. How is this honesty?

I am not here to defend Obama. He may he a wonderful motivational speaker but he was a weak and ineffective president. But do you really believe he was intentionally lying in his promise to close Guantanamo (on his second day in office he created an executive order to close Guantanamo within a year)? The defense department didn't want to close it. To close it it also meant he had to bring some of the prisoners to the US...which faced massive political opposition (Republicans even got a law passed making it illegal to do this). He didn't have the political will and capital to get it done. Again on the Syria thing, I think this showed weakness more than anything else.

I mentioned the inauguration lie, not because it was terribly important, but as an example of the sheer "OMG are you kidding me?" nature of Trump's lying. We have clear evidence that the crowds were far smaller...but Trump and his staff still kept repeating the lie. This is not normal and is only one of hundreds of occurrences of this in the last couple of years. I never saw a past president engage in such behaviour. I really can't believe how you can not see that this is taking lying to a whole new level.

Randomizer
Posts: 232
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:04 am
Karma: 62

Re: Lock Her Up

#20 Post by Randomizer » Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:04 am

I'm more concerned about Trump denying saying something where there exist video or audio recordings of the statements. Or much later saying the recordings were altered when the statements contradict his new position or could lead to civil or criminal cases. This becomes important when it affects political policy and may be for personal gain and not just a negotiating strategy.

Best undisputed example is Trump University where his pre trial deposition contradicted all his statements promoting it and to the press.

Trump's personal involvement in costing taxpayers more to renovate the FBI building rather than the cheaper option of a new and more secure building in order to increase profits at his nearby hotel.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest