Free speech now a crime in fascist Israel

Any political discussion should go here. This subforum will be moderated differently than other forums.
Forum rules
1.) No personal threats.
2.) No doxxing/revealing personal information.
3.) No spam.
4.) No circumventing press restrictions.
5.) No racism, sexism, homophobia, or derogatory posts.
Post Reply
Message
Author
Jamiet99uk
Posts: 4405
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:42 pm
Location: Durham, UK
Karma: 794
Contact:

Free speech now a crime in fascist Israel

#1 Post by Jamiet99uk » Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:18 am

1

ssorenn
Posts: 326
Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:51 pm
Karma: 62

Re: Free speech now a crime in fascist Israel

#2 Post by ssorenn » Sat Oct 13, 2018 5:17 pm

Love this.
1

Randomizer
Posts: 249
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:04 am
Karma: 63

Re: Free speech now a crime in fascist Israel

#3 Post by Randomizer » Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:06 pm

Israel didn't deny his right to free speech. It did what every other country does in this world which was to cancel his visa as an undesirable person. It allowed him the right to return to his home country and has allowed him to appeal his visa cancellation through the court system where he has failed to win an appeal.

The US has had several more highly publicized cases over the decades where visitors to the UN building in New York have been blocked from entering the US.

TrPrado
Site Moderator
Site Moderator
Posts: 677
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:22 pm
Location: OOOOOOKLAHOMA WHERE THE WIND COMES SWEEPING DOWN THE PLAIN
Karma: 195
Contact:

Re: Free speech now a crime in fascist Israel

#4 Post by TrPrado » Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:41 pm

I don't think we read the same article...
2

Randomizer
Posts: 249
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:04 am
Karma: 63

Re: Free speech now a crime in fascist Israel

#5 Post by Randomizer » Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:30 pm

I didn't read the article because I thought it was about this case which has been about free speech too:
https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/10/middleea ... index.html

flash2015
Posts: 1375
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:55 pm
Location: Planet Earth
Karma: 260

Re: Free speech now a crime in fascist Israel

#6 Post by flash2015 » Sun Oct 14, 2018 2:56 am

Randomizer wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:06 pm
Israel didn't deny his right to free speech. It did what every other country does in this world which was to cancel his visa as an undesirable person. It allowed him the right to return to his home country and has allowed him to appeal his visa cancellation through the court system where he has failed to win an appeal.

The US has had several more highly publicized cases over the decades where visitors to the UN building in New York have been blocked from entering the US.
You meant her, not him?

Why did they not just deny her a VISA in the first place? Was the Israeli consulate inept?

I suspect they did this on purpose, just like the Lorde thing and the BDS teacher in Kansas, to show that Israel will go out of its way now to try to punish people anywhere in the world just for having the wrong opinion. Sounds like desperation to me (disclaimer: I don't agree with the SJP group she supposedly was a part of). I personally think that these cases will longer term will be seen as "own goals", and will have the opposite effect to what Israel is hoping to achieve.

Jamiet99uk
Posts: 4405
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:42 pm
Location: Durham, UK
Karma: 794
Contact:

Re: Free speech now a crime in fascist Israel

#7 Post by Jamiet99uk » Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:00 pm

Randomizer wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:30 pm
I didn't read the article because I thought it was about this case which has been about free speech too:
https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/10/middleea ... index.html
Well I'm actually talking about a totally differnt case, so maybe you should read the article I linked.

Randomizer
Posts: 249
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:04 am
Karma: 63

Re: Free speech now a crime in fascist Israel

#8 Post by Randomizer » Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:21 am

After reading that article it isn't significantly different than US laws allowing for monetary and legal penalties for acts that affect something within the country that happens outside of it. The major point is collection of damages isn't enforceable outside the country where the case was decided.

Countries have laws making it a crime for actions they feel are detrimental to them. There are some that make it illegal to criticize their government. Trump has called for criminal investigations into people and groups that have criticized him so if you want to talk about free speech than go after a bigger target where there isn't even a law to support it.

flash2015
Posts: 1375
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:55 pm
Location: Planet Earth
Karma: 260

Re: Free speech now a crime in fascist Israel

#9 Post by flash2015 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:55 am

Randomizer wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:21 am
After reading that article it isn't significantly different than US laws allowing for monetary and legal penalties for acts that affect something within the country that happens outside of it. The major point is collection of damages isn't enforceable outside the country where the case was decided.

Countries have laws making it a crime for actions they feel are detrimental to them. There are some that make it illegal to criticize their government. Trump has called for criminal investigations into people and groups that have criticized him so if you want to talk about free speech than go after a bigger target where there isn't even a law to support it.
And here it comes. The classic "whataboutism" argument. Just because "Timmy did it too" still doesn't make it right. I will complain all the time about the US ignoring international law...or trying to impose US law worldwide. Do I have to write a thesis discussing all similar incidents in the past century by other countries before potentially criticizing what Israel is doing now?

Israel proclaims to be part of the west, to uphold the values that supposedly we all hold dear. Just like the US or Australia or Britain, I am going to criticize Israel when it takes actions which are against the rhetoric it espouses. You can't widely proclaim to be a modern democratic society then when criticized set the bar to be "at least we are better than North Korea". That BS quite rightly should be called out every single time.
1

Randomizer
Posts: 249
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:04 am
Karma: 63

Re: Free speech now a crime in fascist Israel

#10 Post by Randomizer » Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:36 pm

flash2015 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:55 am
And here it comes. The classic "whataboutism" argument. Just because "Timmy did it too" still doesn't make it right. I will complain all the time about the US ignoring international law...or trying to impose US law worldwide. Do I have to write a thesis discussing all similar incidents in the past century by other countries before potentially criticizing what Israel is doing now?

Israel proclaims to be part of the west, to uphold the values that supposedly we all hold dear. Just like the US or Australia or Britain, I am going to criticize Israel when it takes actions which are against the rhetoric it espouses. You can't widely proclaim to be a modern democratic society then when criticized set the bar to be "at least we are better than North Korea". That BS quite rightly should be called out every single time.
There you go again creating your own Strawman Argument where you miss the point. Free Speech is not an absolute right in a democracy. Israel created a restriction after debate and passed a law. The court decided the incident violated the law and there was no challenge on whether this law violated other legislation on Free Speech. The "victims" didn't challenge the law and New Zealand courts haven't yet considered whether the law is illegal and if they will allow collection of fines which probably won't ever get paid because of jurisdiction.

That is different than Trump calling criticism of him illegal when no law was broken that limits Free Speech.

Now if you want a similar US case, in Arizona it's working its way through the courts on whether it was legal to require certification that a company doesn't support the Israel Boycott in order to get government contracts. Arizona is arguing that it isn't restricting Free Speech, but exercising its right not to do business with companies that it feels are discriminating against an ally. Right now Free Speech won in the first round, but it's on appeal. But the law is under court review as opposed to individuals deciding what constitutes Free Speech.

flash2015
Posts: 1375
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:55 pm
Location: Planet Earth
Karma: 260

Re: Free speech now a crime in fascist Israel

#11 Post by flash2015 » Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:28 pm

Randomizer wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:36 pm
flash2015 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:55 am
And here it comes. The classic "whataboutism" argument. Just because "Timmy did it too" still doesn't make it right. I will complain all the time about the US ignoring international law...or trying to impose US law worldwide. Do I have to write a thesis discussing all similar incidents in the past century by other countries before potentially criticizing what Israel is doing now?

Israel proclaims to be part of the west, to uphold the values that supposedly we all hold dear. Just like the US or Australia or Britain, I am going to criticize Israel when it takes actions which are against the rhetoric it espouses. You can't widely proclaim to be a modern democratic society then when criticized set the bar to be "at least we are better than North Korea". That BS quite rightly should be called out every single time.
There you go again creating your own Strawman Argument where you miss the point. Free Speech is not an absolute right in a democracy. Israel created a restriction after debate and passed a law. The court decided the incident violated the law and there was no challenge on whether this law violated other legislation on Free Speech. The "victims" didn't challenge the law and New Zealand courts haven't yet considered whether the law is illegal and if they will allow collection of fines which probably won't ever get paid because of jurisdiction.

That is different than Trump calling criticism of him illegal when no law was broken that limits Free Speech.

Now if you want a similar US case, in Arizona it's working its way through the courts on whether it was legal to require certification that a company doesn't support the Israel Boycott in order to get government contracts. Arizona is arguing that it isn't restricting Free Speech, but exercising its right not to do business with companies that it feels are discriminating against an ally. Right now Free Speech won in the first round, but it's on appeal. But the law is under court review as opposed to individuals deciding what constitutes Free Speech.
And here you go again. Just because a legal process is being followed doesn't make the law less morally objectionable (following your logic, I am tempted to Godwin this right now). Trying to shutdown opinions just because you disagree with them IS wrong. If you don't agree with this I would argue that you don't truly believe in democracy. The chances of NZ upholding this judgement are somewhere between "buckley's and none".

And yes, I am following closely the case in Kansas with the teacher via the ACLU (I don't know of any specific case from Arizona though lobbyists are trying to pass through something similar via Congress). At a legal level it is a blatant violation of the first amendment which specifically bars the government from restricting speech. I really don't understand how you can remotely say this is OK. For example, replace Israel with Saudi Arabia here (or even North Korea since Trump is now best mates with Kim Jong Un)- would you still say it was OK for the government to take actions to try and suppress criticism of Saudi or North Korean human rights violations? If not, why should criticism of Israel be "off limits"?

Randomizer
Posts: 249
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:04 am
Karma: 63

Re: Free speech now a crime in fascist Israel

#12 Post by Randomizer » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:34 pm

But you just stated the difference between a Western democracy and other countries in that courts can remove an illegal suppression of speech although sometimes it may take decades whereas in Saudi Arabia it takes the king to make a change.

Right now we are seeing how Saudi Arabia deals with press criticism in the journalist in Turkey. We are also seeing how Trump feels about the press too.

flash2015
Posts: 1375
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:55 pm
Location: Planet Earth
Karma: 260

Re: Free speech now a crime in fascist Israel

#13 Post by flash2015 » Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:42 pm

Randomizer wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:34 pm
But you just stated the difference between a Western democracy and other countries in that courts can remove an illegal suppression of speech although sometimes it may take decades whereas in Saudi Arabia it takes the king to make a change.

Right now we are seeing how Saudi Arabia deals with press criticism in the journalist in Turkey. We are also seeing how Trump feels about the press too.
I am not even sure what you are arguing now. Let's go back to the main questions:
(1) Is it right or wrong to suppress opinions you disagree with?
(2) Will the courts shoot down attempts to restrict freedom of speech?

I am arguing (1) it is wrong to suppress opinions just because you don't agree with them and (2) in countries like NZ and USA the courts will very likely stop the suppression of free speech, especially in this instance.

Again, if I am understanding your argument, you seem to say it is all OK to block free speech because other countries are worse...and some sort of legal process is followed. Then you side stepped my question on whether it would be OK for the USA to block criticism of Saudi Arabia (another ally) by instead switching to the issue of whether Saudi Arabia allows freedom of the press (we know it doesn't, and it is wrong too!)...but Saudi Arabia doesn't claim to be a Western democracy. Israel, however, does claim to be a democracy so I am holding them to that standard.
1

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest