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CaptainFritz28 wrote: ↑

Tue Mar 12, 2024 8:03 pm

I still disagree here, but I don't suppose I'll be convincing you otherwise.

I agree baseless impeachments are bad for democracy. But they're a well-established feature of the system, they are explicitly political trials, and they've been used before for reasons I thought were silly (Bill Clinton deserved censure for an extremely inappropriate relationship with a young staffer - he probably did not need to be impeached for lying about a blow job). I just don't think yet another misuse of the impeachment process is as bad as directly contradicting the results of an election without evidence, then taking concrete steps to overturn the result by pressuring election officials and your own VP.

CaptainFritz28 wrote: ↑

Tue Mar 12, 2024 8:03 pm

Sure, his speech has power. I'm not saying it doesn't. But what I am saying is that he could've done more than just speech. If he really wanted to, he could've taken actions that would have much greater effect, even if still failing, such as the Democrats did in response to 2016.

He said some stupid stuff. But if he wanted to destroy democracy, he would've done more than saying stupid stuff.

I actually don't know what more Trump could have done. He didn't have the military on his side. He didn't have the facts on his side. He didn't have the law on his side. All he had at his disposal was a desperate attempt to intimidate others (election officials, his VP) into going along with his lie about the result. It wasn't likely to work, but it was genuinely aimed at overturning the result of an election he provably lost.

It's worth thinking through what would have happened if Pence had taken Trump's orders. I assume Biden would have still become president, but how and after what other acrimony? It would have been the worst constitutional crisis in the US in at least a century.

To be clear I don't think Trump has a well-thought-out plan aimed at ending US democracy. Instead, I think he has no scruples at all and a disordered *need* to win, so he will bully or ignore any fact, person, or institution who doesn't support that personal mission. Democratic norms just get caught in the crossfire, to deleterious effect. This goes beyond the normal slimy ambition of other US Presidents and presidential candidates who, despite their faults, concede when defeated and don't endlessly repeat rigged election conspiracies that the courts have already found to be false.

CaptainFritz28 wrote: ↑

Tue Mar 12, 2024 8:03 pm

And to a certain extent I agree. I really don't like either party, especially not while Trump is still with the Republicans, and I think the decline that our democracy has experienced will continue unless something changes. But I don't think voting for Biden (or Trump) will change it, or slow it down, and I don't think voting for Trump will speed it up.

To save our nation, there has to be a change in its society as well as its politics. As long as the average American continues to decline, so will our democracy.

This election won't decide the fate of our republic. It's going to take a lot more.

This is where I'm not so sure. The outlandish idea that Trump = Hitler on day one of his second term is obviously wrong. But this feels like an historic and important election. At a minimum, if the US re-elects a cry baby election denier, it seems very likely to me that this tactic will become much more common on both sides.

Politics is indeed symptomatic of a deeper issue. Treating symptoms without addressing the root cause seems futile. To understand the extent of the problem one must remember that God created man in his image and likeness. Sin is a symptom of the sinful state of humanity:

33 ¶ They answered him, We be Abraham’s seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
(John 8)

learnedSloth wrote: ↑

Sat Mar 16, 2024 1:19 pm

Politics is indeed symptomatic of a deeper issue. Treating symptoms without addressing the root cause seems futile. To understand the extent of the problem one must remember that God created man in his image and likeness. Sin is a symptom of the sinful state of humanity:

33 ¶ They answered him, We be Abraham’s seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
(John 8)

Knock off the Bible bashing, please.

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑

Sat Mar 16, 2024 1:36 pm

learnedSloth wrote: ↑

Sat Mar 16, 2024 1:19 pm

Politics is indeed symptomatic of a deeper issue. Treating symptoms without addressing the root cause seems futile. To understand the extent of the problem one must remember that God created man in his image and likeness. Sin is a symptom of the sinful state of humanity:

33 ¶ They answered him, We be Abraham’s seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
(John 8)

Knock off the Bible bashing, please.

Knock off the Bible bashing bashing, please.

If you want to discuss the past litics of the bible, feel free to create a thread, and we can focus on bashing the bible bashers there.

That is off topic for this thread.

Just for fun I made a LearnedSloth bot with GPT-4.

You can pose it any real world question and it will give you a nebulous faith-based non-answer, followed by a Bible quote with no further interpretation.

It's a fun little tool but, now that I have it, I would like to focus on posts written by those actually engaging with the topic.

I understand what y'all are saying, and why. I'm just saying that LearnedSloth believes that political matters are also matters of morality, and that the source of morality is the Bible. Thus, he brings political matters back to the Bible.

To say that he should cease quoting the Bible would be like me telling you to shut up and not tell me your beliefs on a matter.

For all the talk of religious tolerance, y'all get pretty riled up when someone brings up what they religiously believe to be the source of morality and apply that to what they believe is a moral issue.

Religious posters might need to consider the need to explain the relevance of their Biblical/religious statements to non-believers. The Bible is just a book to me. It would be weird if I kept responding to every point with a loosely-related Beowulf quote.

If the biblical wisdom boils down to "when confronted with unknowable things, turn to God" or "politicians are bad because we're all born of sin", then it doesn't seem especially useable. It'd be like a secular person commenting "we're powerless in the face of things we can't control" or "lots of people suck, including our politicians". Sure these statements are technically on topic, but how do they add to the convo?

If someone can translate the Bible's wisdom on this topic into something concrete and interesting I'm here for it. If they're just pontificating then it seems besides the point.

Esquire Bertissimmo wrote: ↑

Tue Mar 19, 2024 5:59 pm

Religious posters might need to consider the need to explain the relevance of their Biblical/religious statements to non-believers.

Bear in mind that God is love. Whenever the Bible describes love it tells something about God. For example:

4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
(1st Corinthians 13)

Perhaps you can imagine how different politics would be if man behaved more like God. However, behavior isn't yet the root cause:

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. (Ezekiel 36:26)

People wouldn't need a new heart if they could just mend their ways, but evidently they need it, and only God can give them.

Lol okay guess that's it for this thread, I didn't sign up for an unrelated sermon

Optimizing your vote is just treating symptoms. It won't have a lasting impact without addressing the root cause.

You've got me curious Sloth.

How is your position different from saying "if everyone spontaneously held my exact beliefs and acted in accordance with them, there would be no more problems from my perspective"? You've dressed it in religious language, but it's just a tautology that would be true for whomever said it. If everyone just did what I thought was right, I'd have nothing to complain about too.

Trump and Biden are already self-described Christians. Large shares of their administrations were/will be Christians. A big share of the US electorate is Christian. What are they doing wrong? Why isn't their faith addressing the "root cause"?

Congo DR and Mexico are over 90% Christian, but they still have unenviable political problems. High incidence of Christian belief is not reliably associated with good governance in the past. I take this as evidence that even if there is a theoretical spiritual solution to all our political problems, widespread Christian belief isn't a panacea and we still need to deal with a number of practical non-otherworldly problems.

What practical steps would you take to address this "root cause"? What if addressing what you view as the "root cause" is contrary to our nature and literally impossible absent something like the second coming? If we don't have a reliable path to your preferred spiritual solution, shouldn't we entertain political/economic solutions in the interim?

First, I will note that you confuse Christian and Catholic. I believe that Catholicism is fundamentally flawed, and does not preach what is plainly stated in the Bible (in such places as Ephesians 2:8-9). A whole Reformation happened because of this, and a bunch of wars to suppress that reformation. I cannot defend the Catholic Church because I believe it heretical. Also, many nations with high percentages or populations of Christians face severe persecution of those Christians. For example, Nigeria is about 50% Christian, but they are one of the top ten nations for Christian persecution, with thousands of Christians murdered for their faith each year. Also, I will note that just because there are Christians in a nation does not necessitate that they will be following the Bible. This is a failure of the worldwide Church, which I will address.

Second, you're right to a certain extent. Isn't that what every political debate is, though? "If everyone believed what I do, this issue would be solved." This is LearnedSloth's addressing the political debate, he just happens to use the Bible in doing so, because that's what he believes. Just because it's the approach everyone uses doesn't mean he's wrong.

Third, I do agree that there needs to be practical application. The Bible is useless if we don't actually do anything about it. I think what LearnedSloth is saying here, however, is that who you vote for ultimately doesn't hold much weight if we don't fix our culture and its worldview. Until we do that, crime will continue to rise, our nation will remain divided, and nothing good will actually happen. The culture has to change before any policy will really help. The government cannot fix one's worldview, nor should it try to. That said, as you mentioned, in absence of a cultural fix, we should do what we think is best policy wise.

So what do we do? If the government cannot fix culture, but culture keeps getting worse, how do we stop it? Well, you claim that there is no reliable path to Sloth's solution, but I think Sloth would beg to differ, and I would too. First (in my opinion) is Christians actually following the Bible. I actually view many of the problems in today's society as a result of the Church's inaction and failure to address societal issues Biblically. (Note that when I say "Church" I do not mean any single organized institution, but rather the body of Christians on the whole.)

I am of the opinion that the primary fault of our current state is not the stupid wicked heathen being stupid wicked heathen, but the Church failing to act Biblically and do its job.

That leaves us with a few practical notes:
1) Don't worry about politics or who'll be elected, because ultimately the government can't save you. Do what you can to get the person elected who you think is most morally fit to be in the elected office, and then don't worry.
2) Tell the Christians in your community to act like Christians. If they call themselves followers of Christ, then they ought to act like Christ. If they aren't, then they are failing their responsibility as Believers. A good way to know how the Christians around you should act is by reading the Bible, specifically the New Testament.
3) For those who are Christians, act like Christians. We can't expect to solve anything by participating in the same evils as the rest of the world.

That's about it. LearnedSloth isn't saying that politics don't matter, nor am I. We're saying that they matter to a certain extent, but not nearly as much as what causes them. So pay attention to what causes them.

CaptainFritz28 wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 21, 2024 4:30 pm

First, I will note that you confuse Christian and Catholic. I believe that Catholicism is fundamentally flawed, and does not preach what is plainly stated in the Bible (in such places as Ephesians 2:8-9). A whole Reformation happened because of this, and a bunch of wars to suppress that reformation. I cannot defend the Catholic Church because I believe it heretical. Also, many nations with high percentages or populations of Christians face severe persecution of those Christians. For example, Nigeria is about 50% Christian, but they are one of the top ten nations for Christian persecution, with thousands of Christians murdered for their faith each year. Also, I will note that just because there are Christians in a nation does not necessitate that they will be following the Bible. This is a failure of the worldwide Church, which I will address.

No doubt the Catholics think your approach is flawed. Who but God could confirm which approach is better? What evidence is there that some non-Catholic version of Christianity is a durable solution to our political ills? This reminds me of the defenses of Communism on the basis that REAL "Communism" hasn't been tried yet.

CaptainFritz28 wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 21, 2024 4:30 pm

Second, you're right to a certain extent. Isn't that what every political debate is, though? "If everyone believed what I do, this issue would be solved." This is LearnedSloth's addressing the political debate, he just happens to use the Bible in doing so, because that's what he believes. Just because it's the approach everyone uses doesn't mean he's wrong.

The problem is it's a totalizing and unrealistic standpoint. Hoping for mass revelation doesn't seem like an approach even worth discussing - either it will happen or it won't. It's totally unlike having a discussion about the relative merits of different realistic approaches to the problems we face.

CaptainFritz28 wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 21, 2024 4:30 pm

Third, I do agree that there needs to be practical application. The Bible is useless if we don't actually do anything about it. I think what LearnedSloth is saying here, however, is that who you vote for ultimately doesn't hold much weight if we don't fix our culture and its worldview. Until we do that, crime will continue to rise, our nation will remain divided, and nothing good will actually happen. The culture has to change before any policy will really help. The government cannot fix one's worldview, nor should it try to. That said, as you mentioned, in absence of a cultural fix, we should do what we think is best policy wise.

I agree there's a problem with folk's worldview that is upstream of their political beliefs. I don't share the impression that they just need to get more religious, but I'd be open minded to a discussion about how this could happen and why it'd be the best approach to improving our politics.

CaptainFritz28 wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 21, 2024 4:30 pm

So what do we do? If the government cannot fix culture, but culture keeps getting worse, how do we stop it? Well, you claim that there is no reliable path to Sloth's solution, but I think Sloth would beg to differ, and I would too. First (in my opinion) is Christians actually following the Bible. I actually view many of the problems in today's society as a result of the Church's inaction and failure to address societal issues Biblically. (Note that when I say "Church" I do not mean any single organized institution, but rather the body of Christians on the whole.)

I am of the opinion that the primary fault of our current state is not the stupid wicked heathen being stupid wicked heathen, but the Church failing to act Biblically and do its job.

They no doubt disagree with your definition of "Biblically", and who but God can say whose approach is right?

CaptainFritz28 wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 21, 2024 4:30 pm

That leaves us with a few practical notes:
1) Don't worry about politics or who'll be elected, because ultimately the government can't save you. Do what you can to get the person elected who you think is most morally fit to be in the elected office, and then don't worry.
2) Tell the Christians in your community to act like Christians. If they call themselves followers of Christ, then they ought to act like Christ. If they aren't, then they are failing their responsibility as Believers. A good way to know how the Christians around you should act is by reading the Bible, specifically the New Testament.
3) For those who are Christians, act like Christians. We can't expect to solve anything by participating in the same evils as the rest of the world.

1) Government matters, you can do more than just vote, we've already established that "worry" is a problematic word - call it earnest concern.

2) The Christians in your community will tell you to act "Christian" in response and you'll both mean something different by the word. The Bible does not seem to offer consistence guidance for modern political problems. I think your equivocation about Trump's politics is not very Jesus-like, but you and many other Christians no doubt disagree.

CaptainFritz28 wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 21, 2024 4:30 pm

That's about it. LearnedSloth isn't saying that politics don't matter, nor am I. We're saying that they matter to a certain extent, but not nearly as much as what causes them. So pay attention to what causes them.

If that were true I wouldn't be fussed. Maybe that's what you're saying. Sloth's line of reasoning went "this life doesn't matter, don't worry about it". Then, when pressed "okay but politics are complicated, and only God can solve complex problems". Finally, it ended with "all solutions are band-aid solutions other than mass revelation, which only God can bring about".

It's my own fault for engaging in yet another theological debate lol. I found your, Oct's, and Orthanc's views earlier in this thread on Trump's administration, what's likely to happen, etc., much more interesting and relevant than debating whether a religious awakening to your/Sloth's bespoke view of Christianity, which won't happen anyhow, is the only real solution.

learnedSloth wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 21, 2024 11:52 am

Optimizing your vote is just treating symptoms. It won't have a lasting impact without addressing the root cause.

You are derailing this thread.

It's rude.

God isn't real.

Stop it.

The fact that a thread about Trump vs Biden has become a thread about the Pope vs Martin Luther is annoying.

Esquire Bert is on the money with his push-backs here, which I endorse.

The greatest schism in Christianity is between those who include Sundays as part of Lent, and those who do not. I've always been a tad suspicious of those who do... It's one small step from that to burning heretics on bonfires.

Alas, they seem to spread themselves in equal proportions across all mainstream parties

Esquire Bertissimmo wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 21, 2024 3:13 pm

What practical steps would you take to address this "root cause"? What if addressing what you view as the "root cause" is contrary to our nature and literally impossible absent something like the second coming?

And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible. -- Mark 10:27

The key to addressing the root cause is letting God do it. It must begin with repentance, because an unrepentant soul would just harden his heart again.

Esquire Bertissimmo wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 21, 2024 5:03 pm

Sloth's line of reasoning went "this life doesn't matter, don't worry about it". Then, when pressed "okay but politics are complicated, and only God can solve complex problems". Finally, it ended with "all solutions are band-aid solutions other than mass revelation, which only God can bring about".

You have misunderstood me. My first post in this thread was pretty much a direct response to the topic question; I figured that a major source of anxiety would be having treasures on earth, so I told what I do instead. Then you told that you must make decisions, and I told what I do when I must make decisions without sufficient knowledge.

On the other hand I think that you have now got the basic idea of the message that I have tried to get across on this page, except such phenomena are usually called revivals, not revelation.

"Leave it to God" is where religion goes from benign to harmful.

I have the strong intuition that even if God's behind the wheel, it would be working through us and our actions. This world matters, our choices matter, and if what you call revivals is the only real solution then we should be working towards it.

I can't help but agree with Bert here. God uses us to do His will. Sure, we shouldn't worry (in the negative sense) about what will happen, but we also should be mindful that God has given us a clear set of instructions for what to do when people commit evil.