webdiplomacy.net

Octavious wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:48 pm

orathaic wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:12 am

It seems appropriate here to point out the the 'classic Nation-state' model lead directly to the game of diplomacy - via the wonderful experience of two world wars.

Nation states can not be trusted to live peacefully next to each other... Is what the above logic would conclude.

And yet those same nation states have managed to live alongside each other relatively successfully for the last 3/4 of a century. The obvious conclusion being that your logic is flawed.

There are two stages to the evolution of society. The first stage is where something monumental happens - eg industrialisation means that war between major nations can no longer be profitable. The second stage is where humanity, in its ignorance, carries on with the old ways regardless and suffers a painful lesson in why it no longer works. In theory you can miss out the second stage, as the truth of the first stage is rarely hidden, and yet time and time again society needs to experience the pain of the lesson first hand in order to take it on board.

We were damned lucky we got to experience a little bit of nuclear war in WWII. I've little doubt that a more devastating nuclear war would have happened afterwards if we hadn't.

That was not my logic, I was referring to the logic above.

And yes, it is rather flawed. Whether applied to nation states or multicultural societies.

@Octavious

Most of those nation states haven't been living alongside peacefully, but just haven't reached all out war. That hasn't been a consolation to their minority citizens that have faced an increase in attacks from the major culture within the countries even when they have lived peacefully there for centuries.

For example:

Anti-semitcism is on the rise in civilized Great Britain and France with support from political parties.
Macedonians are being attacked in Greece.

https://youtu.be/gS5c_OVZmtk
When people are afraid to speak out, that says it all.
I don't blame the migrants themselves. They grew up in a completely different culture. If a person was brought to the country in adulthood, he will never be able to integrate into society. And it's not just about religion or language. I know that many expats want to return home after many years of living in a new country. There is a YouTube blogger, he grew up in Germany, got a good education there, found a good job and pays taxes like all the citizens, and despite the fact that he is black, he is against migrants. In Germany, this problem has been acute for several years: back to 2015 articles predicted that Germany would not have enough housing to resettle all migrants by the end of the year, and in 2016 the population reached an all time record. Migrants are not to blame, but Merkel is to blame. All people should enter the country in a civilized way, first getting a job and then a residence permit. It doesn't matter where they come from, Pakistan, Russia or the Netherlands.

steiner wrote: ↑

Wed May 01, 2019 12:52 pm

https://youtu.be/gS5c_OVZmtk
When people are afraid to speak out, that says it all.
I don't blame the migrants themselves. They grew up in a completely different culture. If a person was brought to the country in adulthood, he will never be able to integrate into society. And it's not just about religion or language. I know that many expats want to return home after many years of living in a new country. There is a YouTube blogger, he grew up in Germany, got a good education there, found a good job and pays taxes like all the citizens, and despite the fact that he is black, he is against migrants. In Germany, this problem has been acute for several years: back to 2015 articles predicted that Germany would not have enough housing to resettle all migrants by the end of the year, and in 2016 the population reached an all time record. Migrants are not to blame, but Merkel is to blame. All people should enter the country in a civilized way, first getting a job and then a residence permit. It doesn't matter where they come from, Pakistan, Russia or the Netherlands.

My response is a simple, yes.
It’s not even that difficult to achieve for someone with anything to offer.
I did it legally aged 24, again aged 29, again aged 41, again aged 53. It’s not as if I had some almighty education (just a normal 2/2 BSc) & I’ve never been rich either.

It’s some new sense of entitlement that is currently prevalent, that people deem they are allowed to screw the immigration rules, have no job, no permit, nothing to offer, but just turn up, lie about being a refugee & expect the host nation to always buckle allowing “me & my 900,000+ mates” to get a place to live & benefits paid for by others.

It’s simply not fair on the people who for generations built civilised, prosperous, peaceful, societies for their descendants, to have it taken away by hordes of people who have absolutely no interest in the culture where they’re arriving. They just want to escape the “s———e” (impolite Trump descriptor) place they had the misfortune of growing up, instead of doing the building job (that takes generations) others have already done in their countries.

I know this view is unpopular & currently irrelevant, but I see a time when the fundamental injustice of what is being allowed to happen will infuriate sufficient people that the outcome becomes very ugly. The divisiveness of this issue should not be constantly papered over, labelled as bigotry & forever passed on for future generations to cope with. If we think climate change is going to be a serious problem for our children to cope with, I’m pretty sure this one will greet them sooner.

"I don't blame the migrants themselves. They grew up in a completely different culture. If a person was brought to the country in adulthood, he will never be able to integrate into society."

That isn't an absolute truth if you look at all the adult immigrants that come to the US and even when poor established successful companies. That depends upon the individual and just look at famous success stories like Andrew Carnegie and Elon Musk, and scientists like Nikolai Tesla, Albert Einstein, Enrico Fermi, and Werner von Braun.

Then you have native born citizens that even when rich go from one business failure to another, like Donald Trump with several real estate projects that were sold for losses and never realized, Trump casino with several bankruptcies, Trump university closed for fraud, and Trump charity closed for never registering.

Randomizer wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:07 pm

Anti-semitcism is on the rise in civilized Great Britain and France with support from political parties.

Gee, I wonder if this has anything to do with a large quantity of immigration from the most anti-Semitic region of the world.
I would struggle to believe that the sons and grandsons of the generation that laid down millions of lives to save the European Jews from Hitler are responsible for this rise.

Carl Tuckerson wrote: ↑

Thu May 02, 2019 2:34 am

Randomizer wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:07 pm

Anti-semitism is on the rise in civilized Great Britain and France with support from political parties.

Gee, I wonder if this has anything to do with a large quantity of immigration from the most anti-Semitic region of the world.
I would struggle to believe that the sons and grandsons of the generation that laid down millions of lives to save the European Jews from Hitler are responsible for this rise.

Considering how entrenched it is in a Great Britian's political party leadership and that the country has been that way since the 1200s, it doesn't take foreigners. Jews were exiled from there until Oliver Cromwell took over and they were allowed to return because he believed that until Jews lived in every land, Christ wouldn't return.

Randomizer wrote: ↑

Thu May 02, 2019 5:12 am

Carl Tuckerson wrote: ↑

Thu May 02, 2019 2:34 am

Randomizer wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:07 pm

Anti-semitism is on the rise in civilized Great Britain and France with support from political parties.

Gee, I wonder if this has anything to do with a large quantity of immigration from the most anti-Semitic region of the world.
I would struggle to believe that the sons and grandsons of the generation that laid down millions of lives to save the European Jews from Hitler are responsible for this rise.

Considering how entrenched it is in a Great Britian's political party leadership and that the country has been that way since the 1200s, it doesn't take foreigners. Jews were exiled from there until Oliver Cromwell took over and they were allowed to return because he believed that until Jews lived in every land, Christ wouldn't return.

Ah yes, I'm sure that the reason anti-Semitism is on the rise is because of the attitudes of Britons 800 years ago

I don't know if "on the rise" is so much the proper assessment as "being emboldened" because a lot of these people have been there and have had those attitudes. The only real change is the push to act on them.

TrPrado wrote: ↑

Thu May 02, 2019 4:03 pm

I don't know if "on the rise" is so much the proper assessment as "being emboldened" because a lot of these people have been there and have had those attitudes. The only real change is the push to act on them.

Oh come now. Which of these is more likely:
(1) The native population woke up one day and discovered its latent anti-Semitism after decades of being one of the greatest supporters of the Jewish people (saving them from the Holocaust, creating Israel for them)
-or-
(2) Anti-Semitism goes up when you import large numbers of Muslims from a region of the world rife with hatred for Israel
It is a stretch bordering on outrageous to suggest the former. I understand why Randomizer felt he had to somehow pin this on the native Britons, because if you assign it to its correct source, you reinforce the argument for slowing down immigration and being skeptical of multiculturalism, but that doesn't make it any less of a lie to pin it so.

I'm struck by the naivety of the proposition that Great Britain & the Commonwealth nations fought Hitler's evil Nazi regime because of their concerns for European Jews.

I’d say when you look at who’s perpetuating the anti-Semitic attacks you get a feel for the actual answer, CT. It’s not so much they discovered themselves to be anti-Semitic as they now feel their feelings are something worth acting on. Also note the correlation this has had with the uptick in White Nationalists/Supremacists making their presence more known and felt.

MajorMitchell wrote: ↑

Thu May 02, 2019 6:00 pm

I'm struck by the naivety of the proposition that Great Britain & the Commonwealth nations fought Hitler's evil Nazi regime because of their concerns for European Jews.

In the case of Nazi Germany it wasn’t only Europe’s Jewry that were targets. Anyone non-Germanic who got in the way had a choice to make. Fight or lose.

TrPrado wrote: ↑

Thu May 02, 2019 6:08 pm

I’d say when you look at who’s perpetuating the anti-Semitic attacks you get a feel for the actual answer, CT. It’s not so much they discovered themselves to be anti-Semitic as they now feel their feelings are something worth acting on. Also note the correlation this has had with the uptick in White Nationalists/Supremacists making their presence more known and felt.

And yet it’s the Labour Party (not nationalist or supremacist) that’s been found to be most guilty, due to support for Palestinian Muslims (coincidentally?)

There are certainly those on the left who take anti-Zionism to its most anti-Semitic extreme, but I think it’d be folly to chalk that up to trying to gain migrant support.

TrPrado wrote: ↑

Thu May 02, 2019 6:26 pm

There are certainly those on the left who take anti-Zionism to its most anti-Semitic extreme, but I think it’d be folly to chalk that up to trying to gain migrant support.

Nope, just dirty politics as usual. That’s very likely exactly what they have been doing to win elections in largely Muslim constituencies. What chance does a Pro Israel candidate have with such an electorate. None.

Ehhhh, the line can be a bit hazy sometimes and the boundary gets pushed, but there’s a difference between being anti-Israel and anti-Semitic.

TrPrado wrote: ↑

Thu May 02, 2019 6:54 pm

Ehhhh, the line can be a bit hazy sometimes and the boundary gets pushed, but there’s a difference between being anti-Israel and anti-Semitic.

Yeah there’s a huge difference. Largely depending on if you want somebody’s vote or not. Be as “anti-Semitic” as you like (refusing to adopt generally accepted conventions on anti-Semitism) when canvassing the neighbourhood, but only “anti-Israel” when on the BBC TV debate.
To think otherwise is the naivety raised by the Major earlier in the thread. The only reason Labour won’t retreat from their anti-Semitic stance is fear of losing the Muslim immigrant vote. It’s clear as day, but can never be spoken.

As someone who is surrounded by campaigners and political consultants and candidates (my naivety regarding politics has been kind of squashed and murdered over the past couple years), and who also knows very good and well how political posturing works, you can’t fake those kinds of dogwhistles. You’ll get caught one way or the other. And those don’t develop around signaling something to gain the support of migrants.

Pushing the line of anti-Zionism into being anti-Semitic shouldn’t be taken as trying to gain votes, it should be taken as people simply behaving as anti-Semites with a particular agenda.

MajorMitchell wrote: ↑

Thu May 02, 2019 6:00 pm

I'm struck by the naivety of the proposition that Great Britain & the Commonwealth nations fought Hitler's evil Nazi regime because of their concerns for European Jews.

You're getting a bit in the weeds on my comment. I didn't say that it was the overriding concern behind their intervention, but it certainly was a factor. The Allies stood against the genocide of Jews and other people deemed worthy of genocide by the Nazis. Even if there were realpolitik considerations or even simple survival considerations behind the fight, the fact remains that millions of British men laid down their lives to save the Jews from Hitler.
And so when you have to consider a possible rise in anti-Semitism, and you're talking about a choice between the direct descendants of those men, or the large migration of the most anti-Semitic group of people on the planet today to Great Britain, I would think it very obvious who the culprit is.

I’d say when you look at who’s perpetuating the anti-Semitic attacks you get a feel for the actual answer, CT.

Sure, and this is where it would be nice for Randomizer to show evidence that the rise in anti-Semitic sentiment in the UK is the fault of the native population and not the migrant population.