The Right's Denial of Climate Change Will Destroy the World

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orathaic
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Re: The Right's Denial of Climate Change Will Destroy the World

#21 Post by orathaic » Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:00 am

Greg_the_republican wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:40 pm
Yeah, it’d be nice if countries like China cared about the environment.
I believe you will find...

https://unfccc.int/news/china-meets-202 ... f-schedule

Also, China is quickly becoming the world's largest producer of solar panels, even while it plans more coal fired power plants.

The fact that China is the most populous country in the world is balanced out by the fact that the US's population is 3 times as heavy as the average human - that means they need 3 times as much water and sugar to survive (and every cell in your body consumes these) and thus the effective population is closer to 1 billion rsther than 330 million.

It also makes the US by far the most wasteful country on the planet.
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orathaic
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Re: The Right's Denial of Climate Change Will Destroy the World

#22 Post by orathaic » Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:09 am

jhoffer007 wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:07 pm
So climate change is bad..correct? When the climate changes it's always for the worst...my question is this...when the climate changes is it ever good or have benefits to a certain regions...think about it?
The current trends may be good for Russia and Canada; huge amounts of frozen tundra may defrost, and become arable land. Unfortunately this seems on track to release a huge amount of methane, which will trigger further warming; possibly making the change next to irreversible (in the next hundred thousand years, at my best guess).

This will cause a huge problem as borders prevent humans from doing what they normally would have, ie migrating to the fertile lands. That said, there are some good scientific articles looking into the migration of animals (which may focus on humans) based on trying to keep the temperature they are living at constant...

Those in tropical areas may be rather screwed and migration will be a major source of instability in the world.

How we handle a migration crisis will probably be the most important political issue climate change forces us to deal with.
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orathaic
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Re: The Right's Denial of Climate Change Will Destroy the World

#23 Post by orathaic » Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:16 am

Senlac wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:15 pm
jhoffer007 wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:07 pm
So climate change is bad..correct? When the climate changes it's always for the worst...my question is this...when the climate changes is it ever good or have benefits to a certain regions...think about it?
That’s a perspective issue.
Most animals & plants are well adapted to the climate in which they exist, but not so much to alternatives. Think Polar bears in Sahara, Lions in Arctic...
Humans have technological aids that means we can thrive pretty much anywhere, so climate change in a given region may well be perceived as beneficial. To humans.
Rainstorms in a desert maybe? More water, must be good! But not for plants unused to flooding. Could easily destroy a habitat, like draining a marsh.

It’s all about do we care only & entirely about us humans, in which case climate change is probably not such a big deal, or do we care about more than that?

We all have differing answers to that question & without consensus effective action isn’t going to happen, so climate change it is. Enjoy the ride.
That is so small minded.

Humans have managed to inhabit every part of the planet we can. But as a result any changes to climate will mess this up. We currently grow food in every spot we can. So any reduction to this will harm food production.

Extra rain in the desert is not a good thing. The ecology can't cope and absorb large amounts of water, so you gets flooding, land slides, etc. Reduced rainfall elsewhere will result in droughts. Both flooding and droughts will harm food production. Drought also brings massive forest fires, and can create new deserts.

The effect on humans will likely be devastating. Animals may find it easier to migrate, and not having borders to contend with they may avoid a huge loss of life. Meanwhile plants may not be able to adapt as quickly, and entire ecosystems (which humans depends on to live - we live in symbiosis with our farmed food products) may be lost.

We are not that different from the animals... 90% loss of population would be my best estimate for catastrophic climate change.

orathaic
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Re: The Right's Denial of Climate Change Will Destroy the World

#24 Post by orathaic » Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:25 am

ILN wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:24 am
Lastly, hydro has the massive advantage of ensuring water supply during droughts by using up the water in their reservoirs that would have otherwise flowed into the sea. Imagine if California didn't have any hydro reservoirs during their last drought, and all the water from the melting snow in the Rockies simply flowed into the Pacific. They would have been screwed.

Hydro has the disadvantages that we've already built most of the capacity in developed nations. There is not sufficient extra capacity to produce enough energy for the current energy demands of modern economies.

Also, to your comments on subsidies, nuclear is massively costly when companies are forced to account for the cleanup cost of waste products and closing down irradiated plants after their lifetime. It would never have existed with subsidies in the first place (never mind all the state investment in the enrichment technology required for the Manhattan Project).

So I don't see the existence of govt subsidies to get a technology off the ground as an argument against it. You could argue honestly and say that since we've already invested in nuclear you think we should take advantage of that fact and build more...

On the issue of subsidies, where do you stand on oil companies getting tax breaks which make them profitable (and thus force their competitors to beg for govt subsidies?) is that an example of state aid, unbalancing the 'free market' in order to guarentee power supply (because economic security depends on power being available to every single company who operates in your state)? Also, economic security = national security?

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Re: The Right's Denial of Climate Change Will Destroy the World

#25 Post by Senlac » Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:32 am

orathaic wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:16 am
Senlac wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:15 pm
jhoffer007 wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:07 pm
So climate change is bad..correct? When the climate changes it's always for the worst...my question is this...when the climate changes is it ever good or have benefits to a certain regions...think about it?
That’s a perspective issue.
Most animals & plants are well adapted to the climate in which they exist, but not so much to alternatives. Think Polar bears in Sahara, Lions in Arctic...
Humans have technological aids that means we can thrive pretty much anywhere, so climate change in a given region may well be perceived as beneficial. To humans.
Rainstorms in a desert maybe? More water, must be good! But not for plants unused to flooding. Could easily destroy a habitat, like draining a marsh.

It’s all about do we care only & entirely about us humans, in which case climate change is probably not such a big deal, or do we care about more than that?

We all have differing answers to that question & without consensus effective action isn’t going to happen, so climate change it is. Enjoy the ride.
That is so small minded.

Humans have managed to inhabit every part of the planet we can. But as a result any changes to climate will mess this up. We currently grow food in every spot we can. So any reduction to this will harm food production.

Extra rain in the desert is not a good thing. The ecology can't cope and absorb large amounts of water, so you gets flooding, land slides, etc. Reduced rainfall elsewhere will result in droughts. Both flooding and droughts will harm food production. Drought also brings massive forest fires, and can create new deserts.

The effect on humans will likely be devastating. Animals may find it easier to migrate, and not having borders to contend with they may avoid a huge loss of life. Meanwhile plants may not be able to adapt as quickly, and entire ecosystems (which humans depends on to live - we live in symbiosis with our farmed food products) may be lost.

We are not that different from the animals... 90% loss of population would be my best estimate for catastrophic climate change.
We are in agreement, but I don’t think you noticed...
Climate change is disastrous for animals & plants living where it occurs (then subsequently for us if we depend on them). Humans might well survive the ordeal better (or at least some of them might).
There was an element of tongue in cheek humour to my post which I think you missed.

orathaic
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Re: The Right's Denial of Climate Change Will Destroy the World

#26 Post by orathaic » Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:43 am

Senlac wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:32 am
<snip>
We are in agreement, but I don’t think you noticed...
Climate change is disastrous for animals & plants living where it occurs (then subsequently for us if we depend on them). Humans might well survive the ordeal better (or at least some of them might).
There was an element of tongue in cheek humour to my post which I think you missed.
[/quote]
Clearly I did.

I think my most important point is, we have found every bit of arable land, and exploited it, thus any serious change will reduce our capacity to produce food. (though this ignores my prediction above about Northern Canada and Russia.)

principians
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Re: The Right's Denial of Climate Change Will Destroy the World

#27 Post by principians » Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:23 pm

Interesting discussion. Few times I've read every single comment of a thread here.
Some comments:
1) I think we can't stress enough the importance of the mind control that big companies and interests can achieve, mainly through mass media (but heil "free speech")
2) Interesting discussion about electrical plants, but maybe it would help to consider that, if you don't include transport, energy sector contibutes less than a third to the emissions. Another third is transport. The other thid is shared by other industries.
3) For instance, do you know what industry contributes the most after energy and transport? Clothing and textile industries.
4)Did you know that an average merican family with 4 members generates more emissions through eating meat than through using 2 Cars?

orathaic
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Re: The Right's Denial of Climate Change Will Destroy the World

#28 Post by orathaic » Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:36 pm

Principians, if we can generate enough energy cheap enough we can make all the other problems go away...

But yes, having a large dog will significantly increase you carbon footprint.
Eating meat AND driving a large (inefficient) car will increase it doubly.

The US is in an unusual position, contrasting most developed nations, in that they are a major oil producer, and haven't been taxing the shit out of gas/petrol.
(current estimates are Petrol : Pump €1.612 per litre,
Total taxes: 90.971c
Pre-tax price 70.229c
Tax as a percent 54.5%
)

Mostly, not to protect the climate, but to reduce dependence on foreign oil, both for currency outflow and energy security.

As a result tiny, fuel efficient cars are the norm across Europe and Japan. But I don't have figures on the range of fuel efficiencies you see.

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Re: The Right's Denial of Climate Change Will Destroy the World

#29 Post by Octavious » Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:57 pm

I was speaking with a soil expert today who was of the opinion that carbon loss from soils accounted for half of our emissions. It's not something I'd come across before, but I've had a brief look for papers on the subject and the contribution, whilst perhaps not half, does indeed seem to be pretty major.

orathaic
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Re: The Right's Denial of Climate Change Will Destroy the World

#30 Post by orathaic » Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:09 pm

Octavious wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:57 pm
I was speaking with a soil expert today who was of the opinion that carbon loss from soils accounted for half of our emissions. It's not something I'd come across before, but I've had a brief look for papers on the subject and the contribution, whilst perhaps not half, does indeed seem to be pretty major.
Did you ask them how we go about reversing it? I know agriculture has lead to replacement of trees/jungle with grasses for cattle grazing. But I don't know if this is the main cause of soils changing...

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Re: The Right's Denial of Climate Change Will Destroy the World

#31 Post by Randomizer » Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:23 am

You need a better definition of what type of soil you are talking about because the percent of organic material, carbon based, in it makes a major difference. That alone makes a difference in what the land can be used for grazing or grow crops.

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Re: The Right's Denial of Climate Change Will Destroy the World

#32 Post by Octavious » Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:43 am

orathaic wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:09 pm
Octavious wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:57 pm
I was speaking with a soil expert today who was of the opinion that carbon loss from soils accounted for half of our emissions. It's not something I'd come across before, but I've had a brief look for papers on the subject and the contribution, whilst perhaps not half, does indeed seem to be pretty major.
Did you ask them how we go about reversing it? I know agriculture has lead to replacement of trees/jungle with grasses for cattle grazing. But I don't know if this is the main cause of soils changing...
He wasn't talking about deforestation or anything of that nature. It was a very informal chat during a lunchbreak at a meeting regarding an intensive farm installation in the south west of England. He was saying how much of British farmland over the past few decades has lost over half of its carbon content as a result of modern farming methods, which made up a hefty chunk of the nation's entire carbon emissions. To the extent that it was his opinion that without this there would be no climate change crisis. He went on to express his frustration that this aspect of carbon emissions had so little attention paid to it (and I've yet to meet a scientist who was satisfied that his area of specialisation has the respect it deserves :p).

Like I say, all informal stuff, and I confess to being somewhat sceptical. But the initial reading I've done on the subject has been fascinating.

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Re: The Right's Denial of Climate Change Will Destroy the World

#33 Post by Randomizer » Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:46 pm

This isn't a recent problem having been mention as far back as in the Old Testament, but it has only been recently scientifically understood. It's why fields are supposed to be left unused (fallow) and there should be crop rotation to restore farm lands. Growing the same crop every year in a field wears it out.

That's why farmers for centuries would created new farm lands by slash and burn of a forest to increase the carbon content. The older existing forest would be removed and converted to carbon to enrich the soil.

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Re: The Right's Denial of Climate Change Will Destroy the World

#34 Post by Orao_22 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:50 am

I know that we're worrying about Trump favoring coal and China and India burning tons of fossil fuel per second, but there are encouraging news as well: for example, even Saudi Arabia started building "green" because of economical reasons !! Granted, it's because they want to give themselves a better image as well, but a good deed for bad reasons is still a good deed.

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Re: The Right's Denial of Climate Change Will Destroy the World

#35 Post by orathaic » Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:19 am

You know China is fast becoming one of the world's largest producers of solar cells. Creating 'green' jobs, which the US is losing out on... While being blamed for all their coal output (yet they still have a lower per capita carbon footprint than most 'developed' nations.

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Re: The Right's Denial of Climate Change Will Destroy the World

#36 Post by steiner » Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:13 pm

It is difficult for me to talk about global warming from the perspective of science or business. But I got a bachelor's degree in architecture, and I can say that a lot is being done in the field of design of buildings and structures, especially in Europe and in the United States. I'm talking about things like LEED and BREEAM. In some countries, it is no longer possible to build a building without a certificate. And I think that's reasonable almost always: sustainable technologies increase asset value by 7% on average versus conventional buildings.
These trends are economical because they are reasonable. These projects are implemented because they are profitable: https://tranio.com/articles/building-gr ... conomical/
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Re: The Right's Denial of Climate Change Will Destroy the World

#37 Post by Stressedlines » Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:30 am

If the right, tomorrow decided climate change was their big horse in the next election, it wont matter a hill of beans if China and India (to start with) wont get on board.

I am Conservative (not a trump guy though) and am FAR greener than 99% of the liberals I run into For them, its a just lip-service, to make all their friends think they are 'cool' My carbon footprint is far far less than most peoples in this country
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Re: The Right's Denial of Climate Change Will Destroy the World

#38 Post by Senlac » Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:51 am

Stressedlines wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:30 am
If the right, tomorrow decided climate change was their big horse in the next election, it wont matter a hill of beans if China and India (to start with) wont get on board.

I am Conservative (not a trump guy though) and am FAR greener than 99% of the liberals I run into For them, its a just lip-service, to make all their friends think they are 'cool' My carbon footprint is far far less than most peoples in this country
This last paragraph amused me enormously from personal experience. I have an elder brother (ageing academic “eco-warrior”) who has been highlighting environmental issues in his University engineering course for decades. We recently compared carbon footprint as his household’s was astronomical compared to mine. Poor bloody students have to listen to his BS, when in real life nothing is actually done. Like most Governments it’s all just talk.

I live in Costa Rica where there seems to be a consensus between Govt. & people that the environment is paramount, so on a national level they talk less & do more, which I’ve found refreshing. It won’t make significant difference globally however because as you say there are much bigger nations that have to start participating.

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Re: The Right's Denial of Climate Change Will Destroy the World

#39 Post by Stressedlines » Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:08 pm

I read this and had to chuckle

China and India are both. Building (new) planta that are triple the number of existing us plants now but somehow it's the right fault?

USA has went from 56 to 29 percent in 11 years of how much of our electric is supplied via coal while other nations are up 500 percent buys it's the right fault?

Smh...go do a.little damn research plz
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Re: The Right's Denial of Climate Change Will Destroy the World

#40 Post by flash2015 » Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:31 pm

Stressedlines wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:08 pm
I read this and had to chuckle

China and India are both. Building (new) planta that are triple the number of existing us plants now but somehow it's the right fault?

USA has went from 56 to 29 percent in 11 years of how much of our electric is supplied via coal while other nations are up 500 percent buys it's the right fault?

Smh...go do a.little damn research plz
I don't mean to be rude, but what research have you done?

Since 2007 China's use of coal for energy has gone down from 81% to 59% in 2018 with total coal use peaking in 2013...and again China is a leader in renewable energy and they have far, far less carbon emissions per capita.

India is definitely not in as good a position...but they account for three of the five largest solar plants in the world...and they are making a big renewable push:

https://www.originenergy.com.au/blog/li ... world.html

Of course, conservative media aren't all on the same narrative about "blame China/India". A recent cartoon from the Murdoch press in Australia openly mocked attempts to help India with renewable energy...showing poor Indians trying to eat solar panels:

https://twitter.com/MatteoFagotto/statu ... 33/photo/1

Which is just so, so wrong on many levels because small scale solar power is probably one of the best ways of getting people out of poverty (e.g. powering up mobile phones - mobile phones being one of the biggest drivers of economic growth in the developing world, replacing dirty oil/coal lighting with battery-backed led lighting which is also much healthier).

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